Oradour-Sur-Glane

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Georg_S
Forum Staff
Posts: 3447
Joined: 08 Dec 2016 12:37
Location: Sweden

Post by Georg_S » 16 Jan 2004 20:30

a good source of how the German streated the people from Elsass is to read "Sadi Schneid´s" book "Beutedeutsch".

He was even present in Tulle, and was escorting the poeple to the hanging spot. During these escort he saved a 17 yo boy from being hanged. He have told me exactly how it was in Tulle, and I believe him. He still lives in France.

He was later captured in the ardennes winter 44.

Reg.

Georg

User avatar
Georg_S
Forum Staff
Posts: 3447
Joined: 08 Dec 2016 12:37
Location: Sweden

Post by Georg_S » 16 Jan 2004 20:31

treated I mean not "streated" :wink:

User avatar
Kurt_Steiner
Member
Posts: 3961
Joined: 14 Feb 2004 13:52
Location: Barcelona, Catalunya

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 21 Aug 2004 11:33

see http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0 for more info about Oradour sur Glane massacre (towards the end losses a bit of its interest...).

Best regards

Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3635
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Post by Panzermahn » 18 Feb 2005 13:12

This is a very brief summary of what I think are the salient points concerning the events at Oradour:

The highly disciplined and politically motivated troops of the SS were provoked by the highly politically motivated and undisciplined members of the FTP (French communist resistance) into acts of reprisal.


As a direct result of their reckless attacks upon a far from beaten enemy, the resistance caused a build-up of anger and frustration within the ranks of Das Reich. This anger led to the two major incidents at Tulle and Oradour-sur-Glane.


Since the end of the war, members of the resistance have constantly played upon their glorious role in deifying the enemy throughout the occupation and have consistently ignored any responsibility for their actions, no matter how inadvisable.


A crucial question for the resistance to answer is to fully explain what happened to Kämpfe after his kidnap, that they have not done so points to a bad conscience. The almost hysterical demands for the death penalty, from the communists (ex-FTP members) in the Limousin during the 1953 trial can be seen as an attempt to distance themselves from any responsibility. In fact to provide a smoke-screen for their own actions. This attitude persists to this day.


http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter8.htm

User avatar
Exxley
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: 08 Feb 2005 01:17
Location: Lyon, France

n

Post by Exxley » 18 Feb 2005 14:16

How come Im not even surprised Panzermahn forgot to quote the whole conclusion of Michael Williams:

here is what Panzermahn quoted:

This is a very brief summary of what I think are the salient points concerning the events at Oradour:

The highly disciplined and politically motivated troops of the SS were provoked by the highly politically motivated and undisciplined members of the FTP (French communist resistance) into acts of reprisal.


As a direct result of their reckless attacks upon a far from beaten enemy, the resistance caused a build-up of anger and frustration within the ranks of Das Reich. This anger led to the two major incidents at Tulle and Oradour-sur-Glane.


Since the end of the war, members of the resistance have constantly played upon their glorious role in deifying the enemy throughout the occupation and have consistently ignored any responsibility for their actions, no matter how inadvisable.


A crucial question for the resistance to answer is to fully explain what happened to Kämpfe after his kidnap, that they have not done so points to a bad conscience. The almost hysterical demands for the death penalty, from the communists (ex-FTP members) in the Limousin during the 1953 trial can be seen as an attempt to distance themselves from any responsibility. In fact to provide a smoke-screen for their own actions. This attitude persists to this day.


here are the missing points (emphasizes in bold are mine)

This is a very brief summary of what I think are the salient points concerning the events at Oradour:

* The highly disciplined and politically motivated troops of the SS were provoked by the highly politically motivated and undisciplined members of the FTP (French communist resistance) into acts of reprisal.

* As a direct result of their reckless attacks upon a far from beaten enemy, the resistance caused a build-up of anger and frustration within the ranks of Das Reich. This anger led to the two major incidents at Tulle and Oradour-sur-Glane.

* Since the end of the war, members of the resistance have constantly played upon their glorious role in deifying the enemy throughout the occupation and have consistently ignored any responsibility for their actions, no matter how inadvisable.

* A crucial question for the resistance to answer is to fully explain what happened to Kämpfe after his kidnap, that they have not done so points to a bad conscience. The almost hysterical demands for the death penalty, from the communists (ex-FTP members) in the Limousin during the 1953 trial can be seen as an attempt to distance themselves from any responsibility. In fact to provide a smoke-screen for their own actions. This attitude persists to this day.

* As for the SS they would enjoy a better post-war reputation if they had, 'come clean' and admitted their full responsibility. Weidinger, up to his death in the 1990's, continued to try and justify events. This was either denial, pure and simple, or he genuinely, right up to his death continued to believe in the Nazi nonsense. I mention Weidinger by name, but he was (and still is) not alone.

* It must be very hard for men to admit either publicly, or even to themselves, that they have been a part of a totally evil, pitiless regime. But nevertheless, surviving SS-men must realise that they have committed crimes against their fellow men. That they, their friends and colleagues have murdered people, all in the name of a blind and stupid cause.

* The French nation itself must regret bitterly the events of 1939 - 40, when they went to war in such an unprepared condition. Really this is the main link in the chain that led to Oradour. No war, no Oradour.



When quoting someone else's opinion, the minimal intellectual honesty would be to quote the entire opinion, instead of quoting only the parts that suit best your own agenda.

Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3635
Joined: 13 Jul 2002 03:51
Location: Malaysia

Post by Panzermahn » 19 Mar 2005 12:45

Here is a critique on Rob-WSSOB's favourite source on the atrocity by Richard Landwehr and transcribed by Marc J Riksmenpoel

Critique of Max Hastings book, 'Das Reich' (presented by Marc Rikmenspoel)

The following article gives a critical review of Max Hastings book, 'Das Reich and the march of the 2nd SS-Panzer Division through France'. It gives a good illustration of the perils faced by anyone writing on the subject of the SS and Oradour. It is perfectly true that Max Hastings, who at the time he wrote the book was a journalist, has made numerous spelling mistakes with names, both those of people and also places. It is remarkable that in the context of Oradour, he refers to Adolf Diekmann as, Otto Dickmann. What makes this confusion all the more strange is that Hastings actually met Otto Weidinger (Diekmann's commanding officer) and records his gratitude for Weidinger's help and assistance in preparing the book.

The article below is unfair in one respect, it states that Hastings, 'was "revolted" at the thought of having to collaborate with former officers of the Waffen-SS'. In fact Max Hastings makes no such statement in his book and quite specifically thanks those surviving SS officers that met him for their help. The article is displayed below as given to me, without any editing. I suggest that you read Hastings book and make your own mind up.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A REVIEW OF MAX HASTINGS’ DAS REICH

by Richard Landwehr, transcribed by Marc Rikmenspoel

Many visitors to this page are familiar with the book Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France, written by Max Hastings. I too have read the book, and find it full of fiction and errors. I have had the privilege of reading a letter written in English by Fritz Langanke (or as Hastings calls him, Langangke) to Max Hastings. In it, Langanke lists 15 points where Hastings ignored or distorted the information he provided. Unfortunately, the contents of the letter must remain private for the time being, but meanwhile, this review of the book by Richard Landwehr does a good job of summing up my feelings about Mr. Hastings’ work. The review is from Siegrunen Magazine, vol. 5, #6 (#30 overall), and is copyright 1983 by Richard Landwehr, Jr. It is reprinted with permission.

* * *

To start off with this is an ugly mess of a book, with the author seemingly unsure of just what topic he is covering. For those of us who expected a truly objective work, this volume is not only a disappointment, but also cause for a good deal of bitterness. This is not a military history of the "Das Reich" Div., but instead a rehash of assorted atrocity stories with 50% or more of the text devoted to the terroristic doings of the French "resistance" and its Allied supporters.

Hastings used his status as an apparently well-known British journalist to enlist the assistance of several former officers of the "Das Reich" Div. in preparing the text of what they believed to be a purely military-historical work. As it turns out their trust was betrayed by the author, who notes (among other emotional outbursts in the text) that he was "revolted" at the thought of having to collaborate with former officers of the Waffen-SS. The end result is that Hastings has turned out another establishment propaganda work, a little different from the norm in some respects, but still replete with numerous falsehoods and distortions.

Among Hastings’ more absurd observations are the following: 1) The Waffen-SS was poorly led by a psychopathic officer corps, 2) Waffen-SS men were good soldiers but also run-of-the-mill murderers who killed at random, and 3) No German account or rendition of events is ever to be believed. Perhaps the sheer idiocy of some of the text is best represented by the following unbelievable direct quote: "Throughout the next four years of conquest and struggle, above all on the Eastern Front, the Waffen-SS shot whomsoever they wished, whenever they wished." [p.22] I don’t know if it is possible to come up with a bigger distortion than this, but this sentence sets the tone for the entire book! Anyone who has even delved marginally into the history of the Waffen-SS (using objective sources), knows automatically the fundamental falseness of this ludicrous pronouncement. Hastings has brought us back full circle to the old "monster man" calumnies of the wartime era itself.

Hastings devotes much of his book to reiterating the standard establishment story of the German reprisal action that led to tragedy at the French village of Oradour-sur-Glane, but he is rather candid in that he admits that he does not know where the truth leaves off and the fiction begins! He therefore leaves us with many gaps and contradictions in the story, which ironically would have been cleared up had he run the German version of events. But not only does he refuse to run the "German version", he does not even give a decent summary of their side of what happened. One can only ask in bewilderment, why not? If the establishment version is so air-tight, why is Mr. Hastings and everyone else so frightened of running another point-of-view? Could it be that they simply cannot refute the German version? That is the opinion of this reviewer after having carefully studied both sides of the story from other sources. There is of course one sacred tenet that all "atrocity" writers must adhere to as far as WWII goes if they want to get published by someone like "Holt-Rinehart-Winston," and that is that no credence must be given at all to other than the establishment line; no one must be permitted for one instant to doubt the validity of the official propaganda.

There are some good things in the book. The anecdotes provided by the cooperative ex-"Das Reich" are uniformly more interesting than anything Hastings writes about and the subject of the criminal conduct of the French "resistance" is touched upon. These "noble" partisans carried out atrocities on a level that makes one violently sick to even contemplate and the author at least mentions some of them. He had to, since even the ex-"resistance" fighters now own up to their crimes. But it is interesting to note that Hastings considered all reports of "resistance" misdeeds to be German propaganda lies until the actual perpetrators confessed to him!

In the conclusion of this book, Hastings makes a comparison of the tragedy of Oradour with that of the bombing of Dresden. This is easily one of the more fatuous comparisons that I have ever come across. At Oradour, 600 or so people died, 80% of them accidentally, in the midst of a tense combat situation that had been exacerbated to the boiling point by partisan atrocities. At Dresden up to 240,000 innocent people were immolated in a non-strategic fire bombing that was carried out as a deliberate act of terrorism. Forgive me if these two incidents fail to balance out exactly on my scale of values.

While covering the Oradour story from the "official" angle, Hastings gets all choked up emotionally and the text, which is not very good to begin with, really begins to suffer. I would like to ask the gentleman if he feels the same way about all of the Allied "Oradours." Why does he fail to mention the thousands of "Oradours" that took place across Eastern Europe, from East Prussia to Yugoslavia, with millions of German civilians as the victims? It strikes me as strange that the stupendous butchery carried out by the Allied affiliated communist and partisan "armies" always fails to interest "humanitarian" "atrocity" writers like Hastings. What staggering hypocrisy!

Well, the worst is yet to come. Not only have the soldiers of the Waffen-SS been indicted as bestial monsters by Hastings, with no significant substantiation, but he has also caused a real human tragedy with his distorted work. A former member of the Waffen-SS was arrested East Germany on the basis of an innocuous quote that appears in this book and currently the leftist governments of France and East Germany are drooling over the possibility of staging a joint political "show" trial for this one individual! Funny how the enemies of truth and freedom are always the first to exploit tracts like this.

No doubt this book will also be picked up by libraries and the book clubs, thus further helping to set back for a little while longer the cause of historical justice and veracity. But it is to be hoped that someday a publisher with integrity will come forth and openly present both sides of the picture. The truth has an uncanny way of winning out in the end!

* * *

The "show" trial mentioned is that of Heinz Barth, a former platoon commander in 3./Der Fuehrer. He had lived openly, under his own name, in the Soviet zone of Germany since the end of the war. His trial was merely a propaganda opportunity. He confessed to any and everything he was told to, in order to avoid a death sentence. The guilty verdict had been decided upon in advance, and his life was spared. He was released from imprisonment in 1997.



http://www.oradour.info/appendix/landwehr.htm

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6226
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Mar 2005 12:59

Quote:

" At Oradour, 600 or so people died, 80% of them accidentally, in the midst of a tense combat situation that had been exacerbated to the boiling point by partisan atrocities."


Yes a review that obviously is completely impartial and with no obvious agenda!

User avatar
Exxley
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: 08 Feb 2005 01:17
Location: Lyon, France

Post by Exxley » 21 Mar 2005 22:46

The article below is unfair in one respect, it states that Hastings, 'was "revolted" at the thought of having to collaborate with former officers of the Waffen-SS'. In fact Max Hastings makes no such statement in his book and quite specifically thanks those surviving SS officers that met him for their help. The article is displayed below as given to me, without any editing. I suggest that you read Hastings book and make your own mind up.

Interesting "critique" indeed where facts are distorted as well. And thnx Michael for highlighting the most enlightning part.

Mikedc
Member
Posts: 6245
Joined: 05 May 2004 23:13
Location: Netherlands

Post by Mikedc » 21 Sep 2006 21:45

At least three Coy COs of SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 16 (massacres of Valla, Vinca and Marzabotto) had to some extent experience in Totenkopf units like Willfried Segebrecht, Friedrich Schmidtkonz, Walter Biermann and foremost Max Saalfrank who was with Walter Reder in Dachau and with TKSt Oberbayern. Reders medical officer, Fritz Schildbach, served as a doctor in Dachau and Gusen. Schmidtkonz was a former police officer.

Who can tell me more about Schmidtkonz??? Can't find any other info about him on this forum. Was he an officer or an NCO??? If he was an officer, hopefully somebody has some more info about him.

Thanks,
Mike

danyb
Member
Posts: 1101
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 16:23
Location: france

oradour-sur-glane trial

Post by danyb » 25 Sep 2006 14:24

oradour-sur-glane trial:
place: bordeaux
dates: 12.1.1953 - 13.2.1953

8 germans:
1) karl lenz: the death sentence
2) wilhelm blaeschke: 12 years hard-labor
3) herbert daab: 12 years hard-labor
4) fritz pfeufer: 10 years haed-labor
5) wilhelm boehme: 10 years hard-labor
6) hermann frenzel: 10 years hard-labor
7) erwin degenhardt: acquittal
8) josef nobbe: acquittal

14 alsaciens "malgré nous"
1) georges-rené boos: the death sentence
2) albert daul: 8 years hard-labor
3) josef busch: 8 years hard-labor
4) fernand giedenger: 8 years hard-labor
5) camille grienenberger: 8 years hard-labor
6) antoine lohner: 7 years hard-labor
7) louis prestel: 6 years hard-labor
8) albert ochs: 5 years hard-labor
9) jean niess: 5 years hard-labor
10) alfred spaeth: 5 years hard-labor
11) paul graff: 8 years imprisonment
12) jean-pierre elsaesser: 6 years imprisonment
13) henri weber: 6 years imprisonment
14) louis hoellinger: 5 years imprisonment

(journal le monde du 14.2.1953)

walterkaschner
In memoriam
Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 01:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Post by walterkaschner » 26 Sep 2006 00:48

Although Le Monde usually gets its facts right, I think the published list is in error in one detail. Georges-René Boos was a volunteer for the SS, not a conscript, and therefore not a "malrgé-nous". This, I think, at least in part explains his death sentence, although it was never carried out. As indicated in a prior post, the 13 "malgré-nous" were quickly pardoned by act of the French legislature, which led to very hard feelings among many in the Limousin.

Regards, Kaschner

ansata1976
Member
Posts: 4132
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 18:51

Re: Oradour-Sur-Glane

Post by ansata1976 » 11 Aug 2009 16:47

German Nationals:

SS-Oberscharführer ... Karl Lenz: he was transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS in 1943
SS-Unterscharführer … Wilhelm Blaeschke: medical orderly
SS-Rottenführer … Wilhelm Boehme
SS-Mann … Fritz Pfeufer
SS-Mann … Hermann Frenzel
SS-Mann … Herbert Daab
SS-Mann … Erwin Dagenhardt: he was eventually able to prove his absence from Oradour during the killings
SS-Mann …Wilhelm Nobbe: found to be clinically insane and not tried

French Nationals (all from Alsace and all except for Boos, conscripts):

SS-Unterscharführer … Georges René Boos: SS-Volunteer, awarded Iron Cross II in Russia
SS-Mann … Paul Graff: the only defendant to admit to killing anyone at Oradour before the trial began
SS-Mann … Albert Daul
SS-Mann … Jean-Pierre Elsässer: Elsässer is an appropriate name, as it means, 'Alsatian' in German
SS-Mann … Louis Hoehlinger: won the Croix de Guerre whilst serving in the French army in Indo-China (present day Vietnam) after the war and before the trial began. In 1953 he was a police inspector in Saigon (present day Ho Chi Minh City) and had travelled from there for his trial.
SS-Mann … Albert Ochs: wounded twice in the legs on 10 June 1944 by ricochets fired at an old woman by Unterscharführer Steger
SS-Mann … Joseph Busch
SS-Mann … Antoine Lohner: won the Croix de Guerre fighting with the French Army against the Germans in 1940
SS-Mann … Fernand Giedinger
SS-Mann … Alfred Spaeth: won the French Colonial Medal and the Parachute Badge whilst serving with the French army in Indo-China (present day Vietnam) after the war and before the trial began.
SS-Mann … Louis Prestel
SS-Mann … Henri Weber
SS-Mann … Jean Niess
SS-Mann … Camille Grienenberger

It is interesting to note that that some of the Alsatians above show French forenames with German surnames, a good indication of the changing national status of the province over the years.
Others not present, of both nationalities, but known to be alive, made up an additional 45 persons. Thus the grand total of living persons who were known to have either been at Oradour on the 10th June 1944 or to bear some responsibility for the actions of the soldiers, who were there, was 66.
Some of the court proceedings detailed below may have imprecise dates, due to the manner in which the various newspaper reporters filed their stories. The days quoted represent my best attempt at removing the ambiguities, if anyone has more accurate data, please let me know.
German Nationals: (in addition to their sentences, all the Germans were barred from living in France for 20 years. This was a curious addition, as it is difficult to see why they would ever want to reside in a country, which so despised them).

Karl Lenz … Death
Wilhelm Blaeschke … 12 years hard labour
Wilhelm Boehme … 10 years hard labour
Fritz Pfeufer … 10 years hard labour
Hermann Frenzel … 10 years jail
Herbert Daab … 12 years hard labour
Erwin Dagenhardt … Acquitted (he was able to prove that he was not in Oradour during the killings)
Wilhelm Nobbe … Not present at all, as he had been found clinically insane prior to the trial beginning and so was not actually tried at all.
French nationals.
Georges René Boos … Death
Paul Graff … 8 years jail
Albert Daul … 8 years hard labour
Jean-Pierre Elsässer … 6 years jail
Louis Hoehlinger … 6 years jail
Albert Ochs … 5 years hard labour
Joseph Busch … 8 years hard labour
Antoine Lohner … 7 years hard labour
Fernand Giedinger … 8 years hard labour
Alfred Spaeth … 5 years hard labour
Louis Prestel … 6 years hard labour
Henri Weber … 6 years jail
Jean Niess … 5 years hard labour
Camille Grienenberger … 8 years hard labour

1) Of the 46 not present at the trial, all were condemned to death in their absence including Kahn and Lammerding. This blanket condemnation had of course the effect of driving all these men even further out of the public view and rendering their testimony under oath lost to the causes of the truth, justice and history.
2) As can be seen from the above sentences, the German defendants received longer terms of imprisonment (about one-third longer) than the Alsatians.

The two men condemned to death, Lenz and Boos were eventually pardoned and all 21 men who had stood trial in 1953 were free by 1958.

source: http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter5.htm
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Qvist
Member
Posts: 7836
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 16:59
Location: Europe

Re: Oradour-Sur-Glane

Post by Qvist » 12 Aug 2009 08:32

1. Does anybody know what in the end transpired with that new document that the thread was originally about?

2. I've seen that Richard Landwehr is dismissed by a lot of people as a nazi apologist, but not having read any of his work I haven't known exactly why. Now I do.

"the terroristic doings of the French "resistance" and its Allied supporters."
"no one must be permitted for one instant to doubt the validity of the official propaganda."
"These "noble" partisans carried out atrocities on a level that makes one violently sick to even contemplate and the author at least mentions some of them."
"600 or so people died, 80% of them accidentally, in the midst of a tense combat situation that had been exacerbated to the boiling point by partisan atrocities."

And of course, no actual arguments, just the usual mix of adjectives and speculation in motives and conpiratorial structures. A despicable article.

PF
Member
Posts: 2127
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Re: Oradour-Sur-Glane

Post by PF » 05 Sep 2014 01:02


PF
Member
Posts: 2127
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 13:19
Location: USA

Re: Oradour-Sur-Glane

Post by PF » 09 Dec 2014 17:01


Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”