Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

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bcseydlitz
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Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

Post by bcseydlitz » 17 Jan 2004 04:45


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bcseydlitz
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Post by bcseydlitz » 17 Jan 2004 05:15

Warcrimes that Nazi did were well known in western countries , but few Westerners knew the warcrimes done by Japanese troops during WWⅡ。Holocaust in Nanking was just one of thousands massacres in Asia during WWⅡ。

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 18 Jan 2004 00:23

Warcrimes that Nazi did were well known in western countries , but few Westerners knew the warcrimes done by Japanese troops during WWⅡ。Holocaust in Nanking was just one of thousands massacres in Asia during WWⅡ。


Indeed.

During the 19th and 20th centuries, hundreds of millions of Chinese were killed by other Chinese.

Think only of the Taiping Revolt in the 19th century, or, in the 20th, the constant warfare between rival warlords, the civila war between the Guomindang and the Communists, or the huge loss of life caused by the Communist Government in the 1950s and 1960s.

Whatever was done to Chinese by Japanese pales into insignificance against what Chinese did to each other, and the sooner the Chinese of today can wake up to themselves and accept that fact, and stop their continual whinging about what others have doen to them, the better.

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Post by alf » 18 Jan 2004 01:41

Whatever was done to Chinese by Japanese pales into insignificance against what Chinese did to each other, and the sooner the Chinese of today can wake up to themselves and accept that fact, and stop their continual whinging about what others have doen to them, the better
.

An interesting perspective and quite illuminating.

People have NO right to seek justice against an external invader?

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Eden Zhang
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Post by Eden Zhang » 18 Jan 2004 03:07

Doesn't this belong in the Pacific and Sino-Japanese War section?

Oh yeah, and Michael Mills, the reason many Chinese today still remember what the Japanese did during World War 2 was due to the sheer brutality and lack of remorse displayed by the Japanese.

Yes, China had been at war with itself for a long time before the Japanese invasion, but I think you must agree that the Japanese actions in China and other occupied countries were some of the most dispicable during the entire second World War.

Whatever was done to Chinese by Japanese pales into insignificance against what Chinese did to each other, and the sooner the Chinese of today can wake up to themselves and accept that fact, and stop their continual whinging about what others have doen to them, the better.


I don't know how to say this, but that sounds like nothing but a lie. Find me one source describing a Chinese atrocity commited against other Chinese people and I'll get you 2 that describe even worse Japanese atrocities. Is this "Continual whinging" something like how the Jewish people still remember the Holocaust? Or how the Armenians still remember the things done to them by the Turks during 1914-15?

Think only of the Taiping Revolt in the 19th century, or, in the 20th, the constant warfare between rival warlords, the civila war between the Guomindang and the Communists, or the huge loss of life caused by the Communist Government in the 1950s and 1960s.


Taiping revolt: Civil war. Constant warfare between warlords: Civil war. KMT vs Communists: Civil war. Civil wars, put very simply, are usually about either a: opposing political parties struggling to unite a nation under their own ideals using force eg. American civil war. Or b: when a nation has many armed, militant groups and a lack of, or very weak central government which is unable to control those groups. Those said groups would therefore fight in order to unite the country under their banner.

When the Japanese attacked, it was NOT a civil war. It was a foreign invasion. The Japanese did not look to unite China, they were looking to kill, destroy, and force the Chinese people into slavery in order to better Japan. They made this blatantly clear in Korea and Manchuria. Also do remember that these struggles had been going on ever since the collapse of the Qing Dynasty in 1911.

I'll agree with you on the fact that the Communist government's policies of agricultural, industrial and cultural reform during the 50s and 60s caused a terrible loss of life, so I suppose because of that, the Chinese people should just forget what the Japanese did right? Just like how the Ukranian people should forgive the Germans because it was the Soviets that caused that massive famine there, right?

Good one, mate. :roll:

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Post by Eden Zhang » 18 Jan 2004 03:14

Oh one more thing. I actually went to that website now, and looking at it, I kind of see where you're comming from, Michael Mills.

While I think it is kind of stupid how some of those people would still hate the Japanese people of today (who are quite pacifist, and had nothing to do with the war), my statements on the post above still stand.

But I suppose those people are just angry because the Japanese government has so far made no real effort to compensate their victims of World War 2.

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Post by Karl » 18 Jan 2004 03:23

Even Mao and Chiang momentarily put away their differences to fight the Japanese invaders. I guess patriotism - love for your country - overrides politics in matters such as these.

The Chinese people are still waiting for a formal apology from the Japanese government for their actions. Their textbooks are still apologetic – another source of agitation.

Karl

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Post by bcseydlitz » 19 Jan 2004 02:45

If the German society commemorated Hitler these days and influential people said Holocaust was non-existent and even it was quite right during the war , what would Jews do ? Can you imagine . It was same between China and Japan . Althought there are many pacifist in Japan ,unfortunately pacifist power is weaker day by day in Japan . And Chinese nationalism is infuriated more and more by the behavior of Japanese . It may out of control! So dose the Japanese . I'm really afraid there'll be a cruel war break out between the two eastern countries in future .

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Post by Caldric » 19 Jan 2004 05:49

bcseydlitz wrote: It may out of control! So dose the Japanese . I'm really afraid there'll be a cruel war break out between the two eastern countries in future .


That would be a sad day indeed for mankind, may it never come to pass. The complications of such a war are hard to even imagine, for I have no doubt of Nuclear weapons being used on a global scale. Do not doubt the Japanese ability to build these weapons quickly and in numbers. For they have plenty of the needed resources and without a doubt the knowledge. Not to mention the knowledge of intercontinental ballistic missiles. ICBM’s if you like. Also with Chinese technology reaching space there is no doubt of the outcome of such a war.

Although I sympathize greatly with the Chinese conditions under the Imperial Japanese it is important to remember that the son should not be held responsible for the fathers sins. I read “Rape of Nanking” and although there are those on the forum who will say it is nonsense, I have no doubt it happened. The same people will say the Jewish plight was nonsense.

No matter how the Chinese treated each other in the past, this does not excuse Japanese actions. Japan was a cruel and barbaric nation, there is no excuse for their actions. Michael Mills would make people think there are however reason or justification for it. Consider that if it is OK in Mill’s world for the Egyptian treatment of Jew, this makes it ok for Germans to shoot children and stuff them in Gas Chambers. His logic is flawed at its foundation and he knows it, or should and if he does not then I do not mind reminding him of it. He will be the first to say we should not judge because of historical actions yet he uses it for defense. There is no deference for Japanese barbarity in Asia, none whatsoever.

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Post by Eden Zhang » 19 Jan 2004 07:39

Hear hear Caldric. You've pretty much summed up all my thoughts on this matter, and expressed it in a more eloquent fasion :)

I very much doubt China and Japan will goto war, atleast thats what I hope. Both nations are VERY dependent upon eachother for trade and commerce, both nations know of eachother's military capabilities and downfalls.

I have also read somewhere that Japan is even considering letting relations with the USA cool down somewhat in order to pursue better relations with China.

These days profit drives everything. There is no money to be made in such a war.

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Post by VJ » 20 Jan 2004 03:56

Only under the most adverse circumstances could Japan and China, indeed, any two powerful nations in the world, actually go to war. A global economy with intense intradependence has made this an age of political and economic manoeuvre, rather than outright war. At least not any war between combatants with serious power equality.

To get back on topic, however, it should be noted that Japan is still one of the world's most intensely racist countries. I've seen both documented evidence of this, and have had friends with... personal experiences with Japanese racism. Needless to say, if China is looking for a formal apology from Japan, it's going to be waiting for a long, long time.

Regards,
VJ

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Post by Karl » 20 Jan 2004 05:26

Prime Minister Koizumi has in fact already apologized to both China and S.Korea but these are considered by many to be empty words and insincere. He continues to visit the Yasukuni Shrine on a more and more frequent basis and there is still one of the most important issues: the textbooks and that just about amounts to state sponsored (not revisionism…) denial.

(I myself have listened to more then one Japanese Uni Prof openly deny Nanking massacre. :x )

Karl

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Post by tonyh » 20 Jan 2004 12:13

Exactly the reason why the Japs shouldn't apologise any further. Because theres no point to it. It will only be shoved back in their faces. When the Japanese can be sure that their "apology" won't be turned into a constant "moral bludgeon" al la Germany and the holocaust, then maybe their attitude will change.

Countries and Cultures who constantly point the finger at other Countries and Cultures are doing so usually in an effort to point the finger away from themselves and thus negate their responsibilies regarding their own crimes, by diverting the general gaze.

Warcrime pissing contests are a fallacy as every Nation has indulged in their fair amount through the ages. But the constant focus on the crimes of Germany and Japan in WWII serve as a convenient blackboard for Countries, whose own actions are less than honourable, to continually redirect the attention.

Tony

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Post by Eden Zhang » 20 Jan 2004 13:01

An official, legitimate apology does many things. For victims of the Nanking massacre and other victims of Japanese occupation during the second World War, an official heartfelt apology means the Japanese government acknowledges what it did during the Second World War.

Just like how in Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is always to admit that you have a problem (I don't know this first hand, ofcourse), acknowledging the victims and the terrors the Japanese inflicted upon them is the first step to making amends.

I don't see why you say Germany keeps getting shit about the Holocaust. The German government has apologised profusely to the Jewish people and peoples of other German occupied countries. The German government pays out millions of dollars each year in reparations to the victims of the Holocaust. German industries like BMW, Volkswagen among others all pay out huge sums towards those they used as forced labour during WW2. The German government actively aids the Israelis in tracking down and bringing to justice war criminals.

To date, I have not seen one news article about an elderly Jewish man who is demanding money from the German government, yet not long ago I read a news article about a group of Chinese women trying to sue the Japanese government because they were made to be "Comfort women" during the Second World War. I remember one group of those women getting nothing but a token sum of money while another group was thrown out of court alltogether.

While the Germans have made ammends and have taken responsibility for their actions, the Japanese government stubbornly refuse to acknowledge these events even happend. Can you blame the Korean and Chinese people for being angry? If not I seriously recommend you putting yourself in their shoes for just one moment.

What you're saying is: Because one country had a civil war a hundred or so years ago which resulted in the deaths of several hundred thousand, it is PERFECTLY FINE for an invading power to commit atrocities against said people and not have to apologise for anything, because hey, face it: they've done worse before.

So I suppose if North Korea launched nuclear missiles and used chemical weapons against Japanese civilians, it would be alright because Japan had done their share of war crimes and chemical testing on civilians before, right, Tony?

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Post by tonyh » 20 Jan 2004 13:29

Eden Zhang wrote:An official, legitimate apology does many things. For victims of the Nanking massacre and other victims of Japanese occupation during the second World War, an official heartfelt apology means the Japanese government acknowledges what it did during the Second World War.

Just like how in Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is always to admit that you have a problem (I don't know this first hand, ofcourse), acknowledging the victims and the terrors the Japanese inflicted upon them is the first step to making amends.

I don't see why you say Germany keeps getting shit about the Holocaust. The German government has apologised profusely to the Jewish people and peoples of other German occupied countries. The German government pays out millions of dollars each year in reparations to the victims of the Holocaust. German industries like BMW, Volkswagen among others all pay out huge sums towards those they used as forced labour during WW2. The German government actively aids the Israelis in tracking down and bringing to justice war criminals.

To date, I have not seen one news article about an elderly Jewish man who is demanding money from the German government, yet not long ago I read a news article about a group of Chinese women trying to sue the Japanese government because they were made to be "Comfort women" during the Second World War. I remember one group of those women getting nothing but a token sum of money while another group was thrown out of court alltogether.

While the Germans have made ammends and have taken responsibility for their actions, the Japanese government stubbornly refuse to acknowledge these events even happend. Can you blame the Korean and Chinese people for being angry? If not I seriously recommend you putting yourself in their shoes for just one moment.

What you're saying is: Because one country had a civil war a hundred or so years ago which resulted in the deaths of several hundred thousand, it is PERFECTLY FINE for an invading power to commit atrocities against said people and not have to apologise for anything, because hey, face it: they've done worse before.

So I suppose if North Korea launched nuclear missiles and used chemical weapons against Japanese civilians, it would be alright because Japan had done their share of war crimes and chemical testing on civilians before, right, Tony?


You've just illustrated my point far more clearly than I. Germany cannot open her mouth, without the holocaust being shoved down down it. For god's sake, one cannot evenm buy a model aircraft of the period with the historcially correct swastika decal in place. This is taking things to the enth degree. Its an absurdity. Japan certainly doesn't want to see her afairs go the same way and I agree with them.

The holocaust cash cow too is a much abused resource, with little of the "reparations" actually going to any of the "survivors". Much of the revenue ends up in the coffers of the likes of the ADL, JDL, WJC etc. I think this is wrong and an abuse of not only Germany's tax paying public (most of which weren't even alive during WWII) and the survivors themselves. Money will be sucked out of this fiasco until someone says "no more". Recently we had the farcical situation where Swiss Banks were sued for "holocaust reparations". The greed doesn't stop.

>>>>Just like how in Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is always to admit that you have a problem <<<<

Exactly.....but why does it only have to be Japan and Germany? Every Country has its fair share of this "Problem". Its up to every Country to stand up and recoqnise their various shameful episodes that reside in their histories and remember them when they so eagerly stick their finger at another Nation.

>>>>What you're saying is: Because one country had a civil war a hundred or so years ago which resulted in the deaths of several hundred thousand, it is PERFECTLY FINE for an invading power to commit atrocities against said people and not have to apologise for anything, because hey, face it: they've done worse before. <<<<

Erm...........no I am not saying that at all. Neither I nor anybody else mentioned anything about "PERFECTLY FINE".

Tony

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