Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

[Karl]

Germany has definitely done more then enough and then some. But that is beside the point. Now, are you saying that they are denying history because of the potential can of worms? Maybe you are right. It is still rather hypocritical of the US to have huge war crime trials in Germany – the former occupied territories in Europe did the same but what happened to the other great aggressor? 8 hung. Eight. And we all know where we can find their remains. I guess a European Jew has more pull then a ‘chink’, eh?

[tonyh]

Well, the squeaky wheel always gets the greese.

Also, I don't think Japan is "denying history" (a really ridiculous lipstadtian phrase IMHO). They just aren't beating themselves over the head about their past actions in the way we make Germany do. And fair play to them too, I say. They won't kow tow to other Nation's demands on how they run their affairs. I think Germany should take a leaf out of their book.

Besides, where are the calls from all the bleeding hearts for apologies from Britain, Russia, Austrailia etc etc etc for their various crimes throughout history? This type of "apology demand" never stops as most Countries around the globe have claims to demand reckoning from from some neighbour or another.

Tony

[David Thompson]

The topic is a specific WWII Japanese warcrime in China. The subject has little to do with Germany, and nothing to do with the Jews. I know that obsessive/compulsive behavior can be a full-time job, but please try to stay on topic. If some of our posters cannot let the day go by without saying something slighting about Jews, pick a thread where the slighting remark might be marginally relevant to the subject under discussion.

[Caldric]

Germany has definitely done more then enough and then some. But that is beside the point. Now, are you saying that they are denying history because of the potential can of worms? Maybe you are right. It is still rather hypocritical of the US to have huge war crime trials in Germany – the former occupied territories in Europe did the same but what happened to the other great aggressor? 8 hung. Eight. And we all know where we can find their remains. I guess a European Jew has more pull then a ‘chink’, eh?

What are you talking about 8? 8 from where? There were a great many more Japanese hung than 8. I have the entire list somewhere but I have no idea where at the moment. I will look for it.

[Karl]

Also, I don't think Japan is "denying history" (a really ridiculous lipstadtian phrase IMHO).

This is not a lipstadtian phrase-whatever that means, these are words you can find in any dictionary and it basically means not acknowledging things that occurred or to behave in a manner that it didn’t matter. This is a virtual slap in the face of the victims and their memories and their families. Later I am going to get my hands on some textbook examples and post.

This is not about bleeding hearts. It is a still pending legitimate grievance that many people in China are furious about. Compounded by the ongoing visits of the JPM to a shrine where (sorry Caldric I was referring to the war criminals buried here) not eight, but fourteen convicted war criminals lie. This is akin to honoring/worshipping them and their deeds. Why does he still do this and why are the textbooks whitewashed? The most basic premise when studying history (as I am sure everyone here is aware, I don’t know why I have to remind anyone) is if we don’t learn from it, we are destined to repeat it. The Japanese are not learning it!

David Thompson, I wrote that to press some buttons, to make a point. You hear ongoing memorial this and memorial that but nothing in Japan. I wanted to show contrast, ok? One of the worst examples of this injustice is the Unit 731 fiasco. Shameful.

[Eden Zhang]

Here in Australia we don't gloss over the fact that during our history we've done some pretty bad things to the Aboriginal people that could be counted as genocide.

Also, I don't think Japan is "denying history" (a really ridiculous lipstadtian phrase IMHO). They just aren't beating themselves over the head about their past actions in the way we make Germany do. And fair play to them too, I say. They won't kow tow to other Nation's demands on how they run their affairs. I think Germany should take a leaf out of their book.

There is a difference between denying history and beating one's heads over something. If German children were raised to believe that they were all the sons and daughters of murderers and that their forefathers' actions were nothing but evil, THAT would be beating one's heads.

But when a Japanese schoolkid doesn't even know about the Nanking massacre, nor do they know about numerous other Japanese war crimes during WW2 because the government refuses to teach them, THAT is denial.

than I. Germany cannot open her mouth, without the holocaust being shoved down down it. For god's sake, one cannot evenm buy a model aircraft of the period with the historcially correct swastika decal in place.

I agree with you, that is completely and utterly ridiculous. On Ebay you have to sensor all Swastikas on any WW2 memoribilia you're selling. However, how do you think an proper apology from the Japanese government plus reparations to the Chinese/Korean victims can have that affect?

Might I add that the swastika was banned because it was the symbol of the Nazi party. The German eagle is still seen in public everywhere and on the German soccor team jerseys. The rising sun too, has been a symbol of Japan for hundreds of years, no way would any sane person want to or agree to having this symbol banned.

Exactly.....but why does it only have to be Japan and Germany? Every Country has its fair share of this "Problem". Its up to every Country to stand up and recoqnise their various shameful episodes that reside in their histories and remember them when they so eagerly stick their finger at another Nation.

Germany, Australia, Britain and other countries you have mentioned do recognise their shameful episodes of history. It is called the schooling system, textbooks, history shows and other things relating to the teaching of history.

Erm...........no I am not saying that at all. Neither I nor anybody else mentioned anything about "PERFECTLY FINE".

Every nation on the face of the earth has done something bad or wrong during its history, its human nature to make mistakes. However what you're saying is, if one nation did something during its past..oh I don't know...2000 years of history that involved people dying, then if a foreign invader comes onto those said lands and murders millions, uses thousands as guinea pigs for chemical/biological testing etc, then the occupying power may leave and act like nothing ever happened, right?

So what you're doing is, you're giving nearly every country on the face of the world Carte Blance to commit atrocities on their neighbours, because lets face it, nobody has the right to complain, everyone has done something evil during their nation's histories.

Well, the squeaky wheel always gets the greese.

And what you are saying is, while the Chinese victims of Nanking, Unit 731 etc have no right to complain, the more they complain the more chance they have of being compensated? So what are you trying to do? Deny them justice?

In closing let me say this. I do believe in acts of forgiveness and I do believe that the Chinese/Korean people of today should have no qualms against the Japanese people of today. What their forefathers did is not their fault. However, the Japanese government's continual refusal to apologise, repay the victims or even acknowledge their atrocities during World War 2 should in itself be considered a crime.

If the Japanese do not apologise to their victims, the future generations of those who suffered will only feel a moral obligation to take up that fight into the next generation where they will have less credibility as they are not the original victims, thus forcing them to speak louder and louder until we are all deafened.

[tonyh]

But when a Japanese schoolkid doesn't even know about the Nanking massacre, nor do they know about numerous other Japanese war crimes during WW2 because the government refuses to teach them, THAT is denial.

Neither you or I, I suspect, really know what is taught in Japanese schools. I am sure that there is a lot of information left out in the textbook subjects in their schools, just like there is in Western textbooks. It isn't necessary to ram this type of polemic information down a childs throat. And what does it really serve anyway? It doesn't do the Japanese kid any service, thats for sure. It just serves the foreign Nation(s) who is demanding their pound of flesh. How would you feel if Japan was insisting that Austrailian schoolbooks include information that the Japanese insisted on being included about the robbing of their land, the complete destruction of their Culture and homes, etc etc. Or if the Japs insisted on China's teaching of the cruelties of the Mao period. I wonder how well versed a Chinese kid is in those particular items of information. The athorities of those Countries would soon tell Japan where to go and they would be correct, just a Japan is correct for not bowing down to pressure from other Nations telling them what to incled in their own textbooks.

I agree with you, that is completely and utterly ridiculous. On Ebay you have to sensor all Swastikas on any WW2 memoribilia you're selling. However, how do you think an proper apology from the Japanese government plus reparations to the Chinese/Korean victims can have that affect? Might I add that the swastika was banned because it was the symbol of the Nazi party. The German eagle is still seen in public everywhere and on the German soccor team jerseys. The rising sun too, has been a symbol of Japan for hundreds of years, no way would any sane person want to or agree to having this symbol banned.

Because it has the possibility to go in that direction and I'm sure Japanese authorities don't want to see it go that way. Bowing to pressure like "Apology demands" doesn't actually solve anything, it just leads on to more demands as we have seen with Germany's situation where the endless "reparation" suck has been endless. Now the wonderful holocaust avengers want money from other Nations too, a la Switzerland. I'm sure its only a matter of time before they demand money from Croatiia, Romainia, etc. By the way, the Swastika wasn't only the "Symbol of the nazi party", it was also the Finnish National symbol amongst many other things.

Germany, Australia, Britain and other countries you have mentioned do recognise their shameful episodes of history. It is called the schooling system, textbooks, history shows and other things relating to the teaching of history.

Britain? Really? I went to school for a time in Britain and have British relatives. I don't think you are really qualified what British textbooks have to say about how their Empire was won.

However what you're saying is, if one nation did something during its past..oh I don't know...2000 years of history that involved people dying, then if a foreign invader comes onto those said lands and murders millions, uses thousands as guinea pigs for chemical/biological testing etc, then the occupying power may leave and act like nothing ever happened, right?

Er....no. What I'm saying is that no Nation has the right to tell another Nation what to teach their children and doubly so if that particular Nation has indulged in various crimes against humanity themselves, like China. Its hypocritical bullshit and an attempt to avoid the humiliating self examination of their own excesses by pointing the finger at a foreign invader's excesses instead.

Tony

[Eden Zhang]

Tony, your argument seems to be based around your theory that because the Chinese Communist government has done terrible things to its own people, then the Chinese/Korean people as a whole do not deserve an apology for the horrors inflicted upon them by the Japanese Imperial Army.

Now lets see, a Chinese farmer in a rural village who's family was killed off by the Japanese, or a Korean man who's son was conscripted into the Japanese army and his wife made a comfort woman. They don't deserve any sort of apologies because a few decades later their governments decided to do some evil shit?

I wonder why an innocent civilian (lets face it, they are the biggest casualties in any war) should be blamed for the actions of thier totalitarian governments. Perhaps you would like to explain.

Now I realise that the Chinese government isn't exactly open about the occupation of Tibet, nor are they open about many of their crimes against humanity. But does that excuse Japan for doing the same? I think Chris Rock said it best when he said "Oh so they f*cked up, so we can be f*cked up? Thats ignorance.."

Now with the textbooks. I assume we're talking world history textbooks. Well World War 2 was one of the 20th century's most influential events. This should go for every country, but you tell history as it was.

Austrailian schoolbooks include information that the Japanese insisted on being included about the robbing of their land, the complete destruction of their Culture and homes, etc etc.

I'll assume you are referring to the Australian Aboriginal peoples and incidents such as the Lost Generation. You are quick to tell me that I should not speak for other countries' textbooks yet you presume to know what Australian textbooks contain.

Here in Australia, a BIG part of our history studies centres around the Stolen Generation, genocide carried out on Tasmania and other crimes the European settlers inflicted upon the Aboriginal people. We are also taught about treatment of the early Chinese and other Asian immigrants, the White Australia Policy, the Immigration Act and other aspects of the darker side of Australia's history. It is not all glorious, it is not all nice and it does not paint a very good picture of early Australians, but it is history and it must be told.

As Confucious once said: "Those who forget the past are damned to repeat it".

Fine, I'll agree with you on one aspect. The Chinese/North Korean governments are notoriously tight on the flow of information in their societies and what is printed in textbooks, newspapers etc.

So I guess these women: http://www.jca.apc.org/web-news/corpwatch-jp/108.html and these women http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/e ... fort.women don't deserve apologies because of their governments' restrictive ways?

[tonyh]

No, Eden. my fundimental arguement is based on the fact that no Country has the right to demand what another Country chooses to teach about a given subject.

China or any Nation, no matter what their griviances are, has the right to force Japan to alter its teaching methods, just like Japan has no right to demand an alteration from China regarding its own version of history both domestic and worldly. Primarilly because its a hypocritical standpoint when most cases are considered and therefore serves little purpose other than an effort to gain a flimsy moral highground and divert attention from one's one misdemeanors of the past.

Well World War 2 was one of the 20th century's most influential events. This should go for every country, but you tell history as it was.

WWII was the defining factor of the 20th Century, but the problem is that every Nation, in fact every person, has their own take on what they believe happened. For instance the US version of WWII is far different than Britain's or Russia's version of WWII. Also events in WWII serve as a political football in the case of victor/vanquished moral standpoints. Therefor there are bound to be various viewpoints on every aspect of WWII and history in general. Its impossible to get everyone to agree on a monolithic version of events, and thats the wy it should be. Because once history becomes doctrine by partial commitee, we are in the realm of dictat and that destroys learning and the proliferation of knowledge.

I'll assume you are referring to the Australian Aboriginal peoples and incidents such as the Lost Generation. You are quick to tell me that I should not speak for other countries' textbooks yet you presume to know what Australian textbooks contain.

No...again you're getting the wrong end of the stick. I didn't say anything about Austrailian textbook content. My exact quote was.....

>>>>How would you feel if Japan was insisting that Austrailian schoolbooks include information that the Japanese insisted on being included about the robbing of their land, the complete destruction of their Culture and homes, etc etc.<<<<

Meaning that Japan has no right to insist that such information be included. The Austrailian Authorities made the decision to include such information. Thus it is up to Japan to decide what information they wish to include in their school curriculum and not to bow down to outside pressure from foreign Governments, who at the end of the day are only wishing to score points.

Tony

[Eden Zhang]

Nation, in fact every person, has their own take on what they believe happened. For instance the US version of WWII is far different than Britain's or Russia's version of WWII

Every persons' understand of WW2 is shaped by the education they recieved. How can you tell how an ENTIRE nation feels about WW2? I will assume that when you say a nation's viewpoint that you mean the general view of the country.

and therefore serves little purpose other than an effort to gain a flimsy moral highground and divert attention from one's one misdemeanors of the past.

How does teaching Japanese kids about incidents like Nanking give the Chinese government or anyone else infact a higher standing on this arbitrary moral high ground?

Lets see, a Chinese/Korean school teaches their students about Nanking, the Comfort Women etc. A Japanese school does not. Lets say that hypothetically the Japanese government decided it would include things like "Nanking" into their school cirriculums.

So what you are expecting is the Chinese government to be jumping up and down, pointing their fingers and shouting "See?! They've finally admitted that they did such things!". Well no shit. Aearly all educated, first to second world countries know it happened, having the Japanese actually admit just shows that the Japanese have finally come to terms with what they did.

To quote an earlier post of yours:

Its up to every Country to stand up and recoqnise their various shameful episodes

Know something? The Chinese aren't the only ones angry over the Japanese's whitewashed textbooks and demanding the whole truth be told. The Republic of Korea is also among those bitter at Japan's selective view of history. While I agree with you that if China is to demand a rewrite they should include things like the occupation of Tibet into their books, can you name me one warcrime or act of aggression commited by South Korea?

Meaning that Japan has no right to insist that such information be included

Japan does not HAVE to insist. Australia's government is a democracy where everyone has the right to demonstrate. An omission of the history of the Europeans' actions against the Aboriginals would spark massive demonstrations, rallies and protests.

Once again, hypothetically speaking, lets say Australia was every bit as tight with the regulation of the media as China is. So there is no mention of the Aboriginals in school textbooks. Then ofcourse they are entitled to demand reforms and to have their story heard. You too would have to sympathise with their struggle as they never did any wrong in the past, nor did they do any wrong in the present.

Neither did the South Koreans.

[Caldric]

The USA has lived up to many of its more barbaric times. Japanese internment is a good start. Slavery is the biggest shame on our history. One which we wish we could cover up but we do not. We let it show so the whole world can see it.

Japan does no good by trying to sweep their past under the carpet. They will do everyone a service when they admit they murdered Chinese and other Asians like they were dogs. There is no excuse for them trying to ignore their crimes. I think Japan owes a hell of a great deal of apology to Asia.

[tonyh]

Every persons' understand of WW2 is shaped by the education they recieved. How can you tell how an ENTIRE nation feels about WW2? I will assume that when you say a nation's viewpoint that you mean the general view of the country.

At the risk of beating a dead horse .

Very few people who are interested in WWII or history in general had their viewpoint formed by their school education as it basically only scraps the surface of the conflict. Its the education that's sought out after one leaves school that forms the bulk of interest and knowledge and in the society that we live in today, any amount of knowledge is available through the lokes of the internet etc. Anyone can buy a book about Nanking if they wish to. They can also buy books rubbishing Nanking if they wish to and thats they way it should be. Information should be available so that people can form their own opinions. Japanese people are no different in that regard. Also a Nation does have a general "view" of WWII and history in general from a political point of view. Generally most people don't give a toss about WWII or most parts of history. Its something that happened years ago.

Tony

[Eden Zhang]

Information should be available so that people can form their own opinions. Japanese people are no different in that regard

This has been my point all along. Stop censorship of history, it may be disturbing and it may offend, but it happened and because it happened our world is a different place.

Generally most people don't give a toss about WWII or most parts of history. Its something that happened years ago.

I enjoy learning about and studying the Second World War, but I also make it a point not to let any of Imperial Japan's actions influence the way I see Japanese people or culture nowadays. Unfortunately the same can't be said about many hundreds of thousands of Chinese/Koreans.

For nearly all of them, they've had a grandparent or two involved in the war. The emotional wounds left by the Japanese run deep, and it'd take more than two generations for them to heal.

[tonyh]

Information should be available so that people can form their own opinions. Japanese people are no different in that regard

This has been my point all along. Stop censorship of history, it may be disturbing and it may offend, but it happened and because it happened our world is a different place.

But there is material available in Japan about the war from all aspects of it. I myself was given a present by the Japanese friend (a bizarre custom whereby the visitor receives a gift for staying in someones house!!!). A book about first hand experiences of Japanese people during WWII and I saw books on Nanking and the Kwai railway etc available in both English and one of the Japanese alphabets and two minutes on the internet will yield something about the same information. So it is hardly like the Japanese Government are "censoring" WWII history. In fact they would have a very hard time trying. At the moment Japan feels it un-necessary to ram that information, that in reality is a an extremely small sidenote of WWII, down young boys and girls throats. Maybe one day it could be included in their school syllabus, but it should be Japan's decision, not China or Korea or anybody else.

Tony

[Eden Zhang]

Putting something in a textbook doesn't neccessarily guarentee that it'll be studied.

For my entire time studying year 10 history, my class must have only done about 30% or so of the entire textbook. It all depends on what the teacher deems neccessary to teach.

But as I've said before several times. History must be told. If a teacher does not wish to subject his/her students to that sort of history, then by all means don't. Skip the section in the textbook and move on.

But by omitting such information from textbooks its means those who may wish to teach about such things are unable to.