Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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John W
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#31

Post by John W » 24 Jan 2004, 10:13

tonyh wrote:(a bizarre custom whereby the visitor receives a gift for staying in someones house!!!).
To quote my scriptures:

"Athithi devo bahava" (Treat the Guest as a honoured person)

Might be bizzare to you fancy Western folks but it is part and parcel of everyday life. :|

I'd like to say something to this interesting debate:

The involvement of Government in education is quite a touchy subject indeed. But from what I've seen I'd just like to point out a few 'observations' of mine:

No one in my country reads of the attrocities commited by our army in Kashmir. They are all pretty much exposed to the view that the Pakistanis (and to an extent the Chinese) are our enemies. Does this mean that out armed forces are saints without sinners? Does this mean that the Govt. has been pious and nothing else in it's dealings in Kashmir? It's time that Govt. policy STOPPED restriction on info of this sort!

While I say this, in the same breath, I also realise the consequences of having too much Govt. involvement in media and education. My life in other countries has taught me that much atleast. :|

Interesting debate that I ahve followed quite closely. Please continue. :)

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#32

Post by Karl » 25 Jan 2004, 08:15

A side note until more information is acquired (as I am not done with this thread yet):

The fact that the Government of Japan approves information or not for education purposes goes back to pre-WW2 days.

k

BTW: I don’t know why someone -whoever it was- brought up Mao or the Chinese government (and to be sure, a puzzling comment to say the least…).


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#33

Post by Eden Zhang » 26 Jan 2004, 00:23

Well I brought up the Communist government of China, but only to say that I also don't like the way they censor the media so strictly and how they don't let books or documentaries about the Tianamen Square Massacre or Tibet to be published/made.

I think it was Karl who said the word "Mao" first. But he was saying how Mao and Chian Kai Shek managed to somewhat work cooperatively (notice I said somewhat) against the Japanese invasion. Showing that to many people patriotism and love for the motherland comes before political ideals.

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#34

Post by michael mills » 26 Jan 2004, 14:19

Eden Zhang asked:
I don't know how to say this, but that sounds like nothing but a lie. Find me one source describing a Chinese atrocity commited against other Chinese people and I'll get you 2 that describe even worse Japanese atrocities.
For example, the Guomindang army opened the dykes along the Huanghe, hoping to create a flood that would hold up the advancing Japanese forces. It certainly created a flood, one that killed almost a million Chinese civilians.

Zhang also contends that the Sino-Japanese War was not a civil war, thereby differentiating it from the other wars in which millions of Chinese were killed by other Chinese. However, it had many features of a civil war. For example, there were considerable Chinese forces allied with the Japanese, eg those of Wang Qingwei, which fought in particular against the Communists. Wang Qingwei was no puppet; he had been the head of the first Guomindang government set up in Wuhan in 1927, until ousted by the Zhiang Zhongzheng coup. In Shandong, an area under Japanese control, Guomindang commanders who had gone over to the Japanese fought a local war against Communist forces.

As for the Taiwanese, they had done very well under Japanese rule, perhaps one reason why they now do not want to go back under Chinese rule. There were no massacres of Taiwanese by the Japanese; the only massacre of Taiwanese occurred after the end of the war, and was perpetrated by Guomindang forces upon their takeover of the island, against Taiwanese whom they considered traitors.

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#35

Post by Eden Zhang » 27 Jan 2004, 02:19

Keep in mind most of those factions fighting with the Japanese had been at war with the Communists before the invasion, or were Japanese allies and as such persueded to fight by the Japanese. Though they may have been Chinese in terms of nationality, they were still under the control of the Japanese.

The reason Taiwan actually did well under the Japanese was because Taiwan was given to Japan by China. The Japanese didn't fight for it, thus they did not feel the Taiwanese were their enemies nor did they have any pent up frustration against them.

Now I suggest you go onto google.com and type in the following keywords. Japanese war crimes. Korean comfort women. Nanking massacre. Unit 731.

So, Mills, suppose your arguments are for some reason undisputed among all the forum goers. That would mean that Korean victims of the Japanese have no right to demand an apology, nor would the tens of thousands of Dutch, British, Austrailan and Americans who suffered under the Japanese Imperial Army's lack of remorse or empathy.

You attempt to continually find justifications as to why the Japanese government should not have to apologise to their victims during WW2. If you don't mind me asking, are you like this in real life? Have you ever broken someone's property and then come up with the justification of "Well Mr J. Johnson broke his grandmother's friend's lawn gnome on January 5th, 1989. Thus he has no right to complain".

If you do someone wrong, you apologise to them. Simple. It is one thing for the modern day Chinese government to tell their people about such "War crimes" commited by other Chinese during WW2. It is another thing for the Japanese government to just face up to responsibility and do the responsible thing.

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#36

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jan 2004, 02:28

Please do not personalize posts.

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#37

Post by Karl » 28 Jan 2004, 07:31

Sorry, I’ve been busy and also it seems that my sources are ominously silent on this. 8O At least for now...

BTW Eden Zhang, no, I was not thinking of you at all. I was referring to the use of both the Chinese Government and Mao’s mistakes as an argument that Japan does not need to come face to face with it’s past. Also the idea that history is not that important because most people are not interested (it happened years ago) is another laughable, sweeping, ignorant and untrue statement and if I didn’t know better…well, maybe it’s a good idea to stop there.

In general, many Japanese are in fact against the shrine visits (he apparently does this because he owes many of his votes to the relatives of some of the buried there) and many voice their concerns. The same goes for the textbook controversies (an academic has been taking the issue to court since the 60’s, with some success).

If they are truly interested in bringing peace and stability to the region and to make things right with their neighbors: stop approving dodgy textbooks. After all, it is history that gives us our identity and world outlook. We must learn from it and avoid the mistakes of our forefathers and above all, it is also a form of acknowledgment. Regarding the shrine, maybe it would be a good idea to move the war criminals somewhere else (an idea many Japanese approve of).

This is a nice page:
http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/appeal1.htm

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#38

Post by John W » 28 Jan 2004, 07:39

michael mills wrote:Zhang also contends that the Sino-Japanese War was not a civil war, thereby differentiating it from the other wars in which millions of Chinese were killed by other Chinese. However, it had many features of a civil war. For example, there were considerable Chinese forces allied with the Japanese, eg those of Wang Qingwei, which fought in particular against the Communists.
Couldn't the same argument be made for the ROA allegience to Nazi Germany in USSR ?

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#39

Post by Eden Zhang » 28 Jan 2004, 08:20

BTW Eden Zhang, no, I was not thinking of you at all
Thats only what I though. But thank you for clearing that up.

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#40

Post by Caldric » 30 Jan 2004, 07:35

VJ wrote:Only under the most adverse circumstances could Japan and China, indeed, any two powerful nations in the world, actually go to war. A global economy with intense intradependence has made this an age of political and economic manoeuvre, rather than outright war. At least not any war between combatants with serious power equality.

To get back on topic, however, it should be noted that Japan is still one of the world's most intensely racist countries. I've seen both documented evidence of this, and have had friends with... personal experiences with Japanese racism. Needless to say, if China is looking for a formal apology from Japan, it's going to be waiting for a long, long time.

Regards,
VJ
Lets have a big round of applause for Capitalism shall we! Socialism did not stop it, Marxism did not stop it!

What stopped it? Capitalism. Can we deal with a few greedy corporations when we think of WWIII?

:D

Sorry could not resist.

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#41

Post by VJ » 30 Jan 2004, 07:50

I'd like to temper the applause by noting that, prior to 1989, it was not Capitalism that stopped WWIII, but the inherent lack of desire for M.A.D. on both sides.

Only now, that formerly Communist countries, and newly de facto Capitalist countries (i.e. China), have plugged into the global economy is the threat of large-scale war the lowest it has ever been. There's simply too much to lose for any potential aggressor. Nuclear weapons are still available to the major powers in abundance. General military equipment on all levels is much improved all over the world.

Globalisation has made large-scale war obsolete - at least until the resource race begins sometime this century. At that time, we will see a new level of totality when it comes to war.

Regards,
VJ

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#42

Post by Karl » 23 Feb 2004, 00:48

It may interest some of you to know that non-other then former JPM Y Nakasone ‘has proposed separating the remains of class A war criminals from other Japanese dead at Tokyo’s Yasukuni Shrine war memorial so the emperor and Japanese premiers can visit the Shinto shrine without angering neighbouring countries’.

Regards.

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#43

Post by Karl » 02 Sep 2004, 05:50

Continues.
A controversial history textbook accused of whitewashing Japanese wartime atrocities has been earmarked for use at a new school opening in Tokyo next year.
Thursday, August 26, 2004 14:49:25 Updated.
http://english.kbs.co.kr/news/newsview_ ... 2004082628

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#44

Post by Karl » 07 Apr 2005, 21:24


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Creaking Forward

#45

Post by Karl » 13 Jun 2005, 12:10

TOKYO, June 11 (Reuters) - Families of Japanese war dead urged Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on Saturday to show consideration for Asian countries with regard to his visits to a shrine seen by China and other countries in the region as a symbol of Japan's past militarism, Kyodo news agency reported.

...

A statement by the top leaders of the powerful Japan War Bereaved Association -- a key support group for Koizumi's ruling Liberal Democratic Party -- said it has been the "ardent wish" of the group to have prime ministers pay homage at the shrine.

"At the same time, it is most important that the spirits of the war dead rest in peace. It is necessary to give consideration to neighbouring countries and obtain their understanding," Kyodo quoted the group as saying in a document issued at a meeting of its senior members in Tokyo.

...

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/T367765.htm

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