Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

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freiwillige
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Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by freiwillige » 29 Jan 2004 11:52

Hi,
Somebody has info about this allied crime (one of the first at the Western front) at Abbeville the May, 24th 1940 ?

Thanks
Ferran

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Penn44
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Post by Penn44 » 29 Jan 2004 11:57

Do you have any details of this alleged crime or a source for additional information?


Penn44

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freiwillige
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Post by freiwillige » 29 Jan 2004 12:00

...The most famous single incident occurred in Abbeville, France in May 1940, when French police lined up 22 leading Belgian right-wing leaders and executed them in a public park shortly before the arrival of the Germans. It was certainly a "war crime"-one of the first in fact to be committed and documented in World War II -- but try to find it in a history text book! The establishment historians have shied away from any discussion of this event...

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Jan 2004 12:11

Whether it was a crime depends solely upon the reason for execution. If they were executed just because they were "right-wing leaders", then yes, it was a crime.

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freiwillige
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Post by freiwillige » 29 Jan 2004 12:14

No trial, and they were in prison when the german attack started.

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 29 Jan 2004 12:31

No trial, and they were in prison when the german attack started.


That suggests they may have been shot to prevent their being freed by the advancing Germans.

A similar phenomenon occurred in June-July 1941 in West Ukraine, although on a much larger scale; there NKVD troops massacred tens of thousands of Ukrainian nationalist prisoners whom they did not have time to evacuate.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Jan 2004 14:12

> No trial, and they were in prison when the german attack started.

Again, what _exactly_ was the reason for execution?

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Post by freiwillige » 29 Jan 2004 15:17

Probably they were considered the "fifth column" of the german army...
and traitors (under the point of wiew of their captors).

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 29 Jan 2004 15:49

Freiwillge's quote:

".. The most famous single incident occurred in Abbeville, France in May 1940, when French police lined up 22 leading Belgian right-wing leaders and executed them in a public park shortly before the arrival of the Germans. It was certainly a "war crime" -- one of the first in fact to be committed and documented in World War II -- but try to find it in a history text book!"


Is taken verbatim from Richard Landwehr's essay "The European Volunteer Movement in WWII" a copy of which can be found at

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/euro_1.htm

Landwehr is referring to the supposed execution of 22-23 Flemish fascists by French troops or police at Abbeville on May 20 (24th?) 1940.

Among the executed was Joris Van Severen, the leader of the Verbond van Dietse Nationaal Solidaristen (Union of Dutch National Socialists, also known as the "Green Shirts" or "Verdinaso")

Information on Van Severen can be found at Mike Miller's ABR site:
http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/BELGI ... polit.html

During the war the Belgian fascists created a "Van Severen" award given to fascist members who had been imprisoned by the Belgian government immediate prior to the May 1940 invasion. You can see an example of it at

http://axis101.bizland.com/FlemishAward3.htm

If people are interested in researching the circumstances of this incident, I would recommend researching the Verdinaso movement in 1930's Belgium particuarly the role the party may have played in pro-Nazi, anti-government agitation in the late 1930's, plus texts on the May 1940 invasion of France. One might also find details on the circumstances of the deaths from wartime Belgian fascist propaganda, although that material should be viewed skeptically, given the fascist tentency to manufacture martyrs to the cause like Horst Wessel.

The answer to Landwehr's question about trying to find this information in a book is pretty straightforward: Book publishers can make more money publishing books on Tiger tanks or D-Day then they can on books about obscure 1930's Flemish fascist parties. Which is why Amazon.com has more of the former than of the latter.

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Post by Dan » 29 Jan 2004 16:13

I type from page 28 of Collaberation in Belgium by Maritn Conway; Yale 1993

"Amisdt the panic engendered by the German successes, the Belgian prisoners were considered by their French captors to be German agents adn on 20 May 1940 at Abberville in northern France. 21 of their number - including Joris Van Severen, the leader of the Flemish New Order movement, Verdinaso, as well as an elderly Rexist - were executed by French soldiers"

The citation is J. Gerard-Libois and J. Gotovitch L'an 40 p. 114; Le PR 1 Sept 1940 , p. 1. "Un martyr rexiste"

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Post by Dan » 29 Jan 2004 16:17

I should say that Conway is no friend of the right, and points out that Degrelle, in his opinion exaggerated the treatment of the Rexists by the French. Nevertheless, he states that those Rexists who escaped summery execution were beaten and otherwise mistreated as they were shifted from jail to jail ahead of the German movement into France.

It is noteworthy that with perhaps a few, isolated exeptions, the Rexists in the Belgian army fought as patriotically as the rest of the armed forces.

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Post by Dimitrii » 29 Jan 2004 16:59

No, it wasn't like any of the above postings. The biggest blunder comes from ,,Rob'', who thinks that these people were ,,fascist''. It's off topic here, but fascists are state-nationalists, while the executed people were people's nationalist. If anyone here is a facist, it certainly will be ,,Rob'' and no one else. Anyhow, it was no ,,execution'' in the real sense of the word, there was nothing pre-planned idea about this. Merely drunk French soldiers who were even more frenzied in their drunken state. Not all of the murdered people were nationalists of course. About 7.000 people were transported from Flanders/Wallonia/Ostkantons to southern France. These people were considered ,,dangerous to the state'' and included: German-speaking inhavitans, Jews, communists but the majority were nationalists, some of them just 16 years old. The group which is mentioned here was very diverse, and included an 80+ years old German women from the annexed (1920) German areas of Belgium. They were plucked from their train and locked up in the cellar of the town's orchestra podium at Abbeville, after which drunken French soldiers called them out one by one and executed them.

For Rob:
Please, stop commenting about our national history in that fashion. Unless you tried to be funny. Your ,,agitation against the state'' is actually a complex problem of people's nationalist versus your kind of nationalism; state nationalism. Belgium, like the US, is a state, meaning a forced 'holding' of several nations, several people. Nationalists want an own nation for their own people and thus tried to achieve this through political channels. I refer rob to the breaking of up states like Yugoslavia for recent illustrations to this point. Anyhow, some friendly advice: better not comment on oversea national history from your usual political corner. Since I doubt you contest the existance of Israel, don't bother contesting nationalists opting for their own nation.

To Dan:
You are quite right. I have read Degrelle's book about his deportation to France (,,War behind bars'') and must say I sometimes find it hard to believe. The problem is Degrelle made himself untrustworthy by making downright false statements in the past, caused by most likely his older age. I wouldn't say he got dement, but some things he said in intervieuws are based on untruths. Therefore, I remain skeptical to what he writes. One point no doubt remains: The conditions for these deportees was lamentable to say the least.

To finish up; The reason behind the executions was: drunken and frenzied French soldiers, merely a handful of them. I wouldn't call it a war crime since that smells like political axes being grinded. The reason for deportation to French camps was indeed ,,fifth column''. The paranoia (a word Rob should remember) even went so far that Belgian govenment had ads removed from walls because they contained ,,German code language for spies''. They just were notes from the distributor where to pase them ...

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Post by Juha Hujanen » 29 Jan 2004 17:48

The Abbeville shootings are briefly covered in Zayas-The Wehmacht War Crimes Bureau 1939-1945.

According to it some of killed were Belgian fascist but some were jewish refugees from Germany.The key witness was Danish engineer Paul Winter,who was also arrested by French but managed to escape before shootings.21 corpses were found from place shown by Winter and German Foreign Office made an propanda brochure called "The crimes of Lille and Abbeville".

/Juha

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Post by David Thompson » 29 Jan 2004 18:34

Stubaf -- You had some advice for Rob, and now I have some for you: Personal references to other posters are not permitted here. Avoid them and stay on topic. If you want the readers to take you seriously, provide references for your arguments.

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 29 Jan 2004 18:37

For Rob:
Please, stop commenting about our national history in that fashion. Unless you tried to be funny. Your ,,agitation against the state'' is actually a complex problem of people's nationalist versus your kind of nationalism; state nationalism. Belgium, like the US, is a state, meaning a forced 'holding' of several nations, several people. Nationalists want an own nation for their own people and thus tried to achieve this through political channels. I refer rob to the breaking of up states like Yugoslavia for recent illustrations to this point. Anyhow, some friendly advice: better not comment on oversea national history from your usual political corner. Since I doubt you contest the existance of Israel, don't bother contesting nationalists opting for their own nation.


Is that you, Standartenführer?


Was Verdinaso a fascist party?


The Verdinaso movement, too, can be considered fascists, but its leader, Joris Van Severen was killed before the Nazi occupation


see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Fascist


Wies Moens was one of the founders of Verdinaso (het Verbond van Dietsch Nationaal Solidaristen, something like the Union of Dutch National Solidarists), which functioned as the embodiment of Flemish fascism (cf. De Wever, 179).


see http://odur.let.rug.nl/~vdhoeven/tutkimus/egil.htm



Groups such as the Verdinaso of Joris Van Severen (who for the first time used the slogan ‘België barst’ – split Belgium, one of the main slogans of the Vlaams Blok today) or the VNV (which in the 1936 elections used the name ‘Vlaams Blok’) were convinced nazis who actively took part in the deportation of Jews and leftwing activists.


see http://www.lsp-mas.be/lsp/cwi/159blok.html

(Ah, but you can't trust those wacky Belgian socialists, can you?)

Of course, the diagram on the page
"A LONG VIEW:  THE QUESTION OF FASCISM, THE EXTREME RIGHT AND THE CONSERVATIVE AUSTRALIAN STATE 1919 - 1945"
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/oth ... sm/01.html

labels the Verdinaso as extreme right instead of fascist.

If certain forum members don't like Verdinaso being labeled fascist, take it up with the owners of those websites. To paraphrase Tolkien, no doubt sheep appear different to other sheep, or to shephards.

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