Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

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Dimitrii
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Post by Dimitrii » 29 Jan 2004 19:14

Was Verdinaso a fascist party?
see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Fascist


Above information is too simplistic and once again falls victim to use of wrong typecasting id est = ,,fascists''. Also, what's that quoted link worth, you think?

Wies Moens was one of the founders of Verdinaso (het Verbond van Dietsch Nationaal Solidaristen, something like the Union of Dutch National Solidarists), which functioned as the embodiment of Flemish fascism (cf. De Wever, 179).

see http://odur.let.rug.nl/~vdhoeven/tutkimus/egil.htm

You're posting the same twice, both links essentially say the same - albeit the second one probably has political aims of itself, and is thus not quite trustworthy.

see http://www.lsp-mas.be/lsp/cwi/159blok.html
(Ah, but you can't trust those wacky Belgian socialists, can you?)


Those aren't the socialists, what you're quoting from is extreme-leftist student's organisation! :roll: As you can see they firstly try to blacken one party from the past, then link it to a current one to make a guilt through association sort of effect. You're letting yourself be taken by the nose here, these people love to play political games. This is unworthy of any serious research and has nothing to do with original topic.

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/otherradicalism/01.html
labels the Verdinaso as extreme right instead of fascist.


If extreme right means ''very conservative", then it is correct. But I'd be careful with those terms, there are always used by political agitators wanting to achieve some goal. "Fascism" is the beloved term of any leftist wanting to attack something he doesn't like, so be careful on how you use the term as it betrays political motivation.

If certain forum members don't like Verdinaso being labeled fascist, take it up with the owners of those websites.


Well I have the idea you still don't understand the complex situation at the time, wich is the key to understanding this thread. Mr. David won't like this, but once again: the term "fascist" only refers to Mediteranean state-nationalism. There is a large and uncompromisable difference between state nationalists (as represented by Musslolini's fascist regime) and ,Volksnationalismus' (in German as I don't know the correct English translation). The two normally hate each other and that's why the French shot the 21 people, whom this thread is about. The French back then didn't like the Germans for many reasons, and they certainly didn't like those Flemish nationalists either, who modeled their organisations after the NSDAP and it's party-organisations. That they were drunk worked as a catalysator, with the known results.

Anyway, quoting from websites you've found through google is too easy. But it seems we don't have to quarrel about the murder of nationalists/civilians here. The only thing you got wrong here was a semantic difference, the term ,,facists'' wasd fondly used by communists in order to hide that the national-socialists were socialists as well. That's why all nationalists were called by one term, fascists, which did certainly not reflect any real situation. For example you possible can't call any German nationalist (be it a state nationalist or a Volksnationalist) a fascist. It's a serious historical error but hardly ever pointed at. Facism refers to the Mediteranean state-nationalists who want to re-erect the Roman Empire. Hence the referal to the fasces as used bu the lictors in acient Rome. Nothing to do with Flemish nationalism and or collaboration!

So, this short detour was needed to illustrate nevertheless an important point, it also is closely related to the reason why these people were executed. Anybody who knows Belgium a bit will know the everlasting quarrel between the state nationalists and the nation-nationalists. It's everywhere, look at the Basque region, the Irish and yes, even America where state nationalists had their own war (civil war). A complex matter, this is not the area to go into detail about it.

Basically what we have here is a semantic discussion with bits of historical desinformation (not your fault, many if not all common works faim to dismantle this). So continuation perhaps is best left for personal messaging, as this is not really food for the thread. Merely sketching the reason behind the unusual murders at Abbeville, as requested by member Sergey Romanov. I hope it was clear enough, I tried to cut it short to meet the demands of the moderator.

Best regards,

Stubaf.

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Post by David Thompson » 30 Jan 2004 01:28

Stubaf -- In the English language, the term "fascism" is used in two different senses. The first refers specifically to the Italian fascist party. The second sense of the word "fascism" refers to political movements which are "similar" to Italian fascism. The unabridged dictionaries I have (Oxford and Random House) agree that the second of these is the primary meaning of the term "fascism" in English.

Examples of accepted analogous usage in English include the terms "xerox," "kleenex," and "scotch tape." These terms also have two meanings: (1) refers specifically to products manufactured by the named corporate entities, and (2) refers to similar products, which are manufactured by different companies.

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lebel
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The Abbeville massacre

Post by lebel » 07 Jun 2007 21:57

Bonsoir
I sum up briefly that tragical episode of may 40 , involving some french officers
The comprehensive account is in french , below

On may 15,1940, following german offensive in Belgium , Bruges is about to fall and the penitentiary administration decides to transfer to France all prisoners
They were 79 , among them 21 belgians (suspected spies and members of ultra right flemish movements and among them Léon Degrelle ), 18 jews and about 40 others of different nationalities with no specific charges (the Canadian Robert Bell , coach of german hockey team ,not straight with his papers and suspected of espionage ) , a bunch of spanish and italians antifascists ........and some real spies !

They are handed over to french secutity forces in Bethune ( Degrelle was recognized and severely beaten up by French soldiers but succeeded in escaping ) and then jailed in the music kiosk of Abbeville

On may 20 , germans being at the door of the city , French captain M. Dingeon (a notorious drunkard ) chooses an expeditious solution : to shoot them all ! He gives order to sergeant F. Mollet (another drunkard ) to form a firing squad ......by groups of 4, the prisoners are shot of cold blood. Lieutenant R. Caron , passing by on his way to the next bistro , is happy to join the shooting party

Lieutenant J. Leclabart informed of the facts orders to stop the killings ......already 21 were dead
A young girl of 18 , G. Warris,(whose father was a prominent flemish nationalist ) in her book "The blood bath of Abbeville " tells how she was arrested with her grandmother of 70 , and this latter ,extracted from their cell , savagely bayonetted to death

in 1942 a trial before a french tribunal took place in Amiens( behind closed doors : Caron and Mollet were sentenced to death and executed in the citadel of "Mont Valerien "

*Mont Valerien , near Paris, is the place where Germans executed their hostages , jews and resistants and thus, patriotically revered

is it for that reason that a street in Abbeville is nowadays after the name of René Caron? !!!















Le 15 mai, l'administration pénitentiaire de la prison de Bruges, submergée par l'incarcération de "suspects" décide d'en transférer une partie vers la France. 79 personnes sont embarquées dans un convoi de trois autocars: 20 ou 21 Belges, 18 Juifs de nationalité inconnue, 14 Allemands, 6 Néerlandais, 3 Luxembourgeois, 9 Italiens, 2 Suisses, 1 Français Alsacien que l'on pourrait à première vue croire victimes d'un accent allemand, 1 Espagnol, 1 Danois, 1 Canadien Robert Bell, entraîneur de l'équipe nationale allemande de hockey sur glace, incarcéré en mars 1940 pour manque de papiers en règle et suspecté d'être un espion, 1 Autrichien, 1 Tchèque. Tous, bien entendu, ne sont pas innocents. Le groupe compte notamment Léon Degrelle en personne, le chef de Rex.

Les trois autocars et les 78 détenus partis de Bruges avaient gagné Dunkerque via Ostende à la frontière franco-belge. Là, Léon Degrelle qui est né sous une bonne étoile est reconnu, tiré du car et proprement passé à tabac par des militaires français. Degrelle s'en tire avec quelques "bleus" somme toute bien mérités. Le convoi repartira sans lui, et sous les huées et les jets de pierre atteindra la prison de Béthune où, après un interrogatoire d'identité sommaire pour l'établissement d'une liste, les 77 suspects seront remis, dans des conditions restées peu claires, à la Sûreté française. Ils resteront détenus à Béthune jusqu'au 19 mai, puis de nouveau évacués devant l'avance allemande. Au moment du départ, on joindra au lot un jeune Belge vivant en France et ayant refusé d'être mobilisé dans l'armée de la IIIème République.

Sous la protection de la Sûreté française, le convoi atteindra Abbeville dans la nuit du 19 au 20 mai vers minuit et les suspects seront, faute de mieux, enfermés dans la cave du kiosque de musique de la Porte du Bois. Pour Abbeville, la journée du 20 mai est un jour sombre. Les Allemands sont aux portes de la ville. Pour les dernières unités présentes dans la ville en flammes, le "décrochage" s'impose mais que faire des prisonniers ?

Le capitaine Marcel Dingeon, de l'état-major de la place, un architecte mobilisé choisit une solution expéditive: les fusiller tous! Qui donc a eu la malencontreuse idée de confier 79 "parachutistes" allemands à un capitaine ivrogne (c'est ce que dira la commission d'enquête). Dingeon donne ordre verbal au sergent-chef François Mollet et sa section de la 5ième compagnie du 28ième Régiment Régional, des territoriaux rappelés d'âge déjà mûr. Quelques soldats d'une unité du Train se joindront à eux. La tuerie commence. Par groupe de 4 ou de 2, les malheureux civils sont extrait de leur cachot et abattus froidement. Le lieutenant René Caron, supérieur direct de Mollet, instituteur dans le civil, qui passait justement par là, participe à la fête. (encore un ivrogne dira l'enquête).


Serait-ce pour commémorer l'exploit du lieutenant René Caron qu'une rue d'Abbeville porte toujours son nom ?




Le sergent chef Mollet est mal à l'aise. Il retourne voir le chef Dingeon. "Fusillez les tous" répond Dingeon. Pour en finir au plus vite, un soldat français lance une grenade dans la cave du kiosque. Elle n'explose pas. Elle était de mauvaise qualité ! 21 exécutions ont déjà eu lieu, interrompu de temps en temps par les bombardements allemands. Le lieutenant Jean Leclabart du 28e RR qui lui aussi passait par là et qui connaissait le règlement militaire s'exclame: "Mais enfin, êtes-vous devenu fou?" et demande l'ordre d'exécution. Comme personne ne peut montrer un tel ordre, il fait arrêter le massacre.

Parmi les victimes : Joris Van Severen, chef du Verdinaso et son secrétaire, Jan Rijckoort ; un canadien, entraîneur de hockey sur glace, arrêté au mauvais endroit et au mauvais moment parque ces papiers n'étaient pas en ordre ; un frère bénédictin d'origine allemande ; une vieille dame ; Lucien Monami, conseiller communal de St-Gilles ; un marchand de chicons (en France on dit endives), conducteur de son véhicule réquisitionné pour transporter les "suspects" et qui, par ironie du sort, le partagea par erreur ; 4 italiens antifascistes réfugiés en Belgique et qui croyaient échapper aux Allemands,...!

Il y avait aussi parmi les victimes, il faut le dire, de véritables espions.


Epilogue :

Le calvaire des survivants ne se termine pas à Abbeville. Certains feront le voyage jusqu'à Auschwitz pour ne plus en revenir.

Source :

"Het bloedbad van Abbeville" de Gaby Warris. Gaby Warris avait 18 ans. Elle fut arrêtée avec sa mère et sa grand-mère sous prétexte que son père était militant nationaliste flamand. Elle raconte le massacre et comment, sous ses yeux, sa grand-mère fut tirée de la cave du kiosque et assassinée à coup de crosse et de baïonnette. "Dossier Abbeville" de Carlos H. Vlaeminck et article de Dirk Martin dans Jours de Guerre N° 3 édité par le Crédit Communal de Belgique. 8O

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sylvan
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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by sylvan » 04 Nov 2018 07:14

Bonjour,
Il existe un documentaire de la TV belge qui raconte ce massacre. Je le retrouve pas car je n'ai pas le titre. Serait il possible de m'envoyer un lien où je peux le regarder ? J'habite moi même Abbeville.
Merci

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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by David Thompson » 04 Nov 2018 20:26

English is the language of this international forum. Please use it when posting, so that other members interested in the topic can read what you have to say.

michael mills
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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by michael mills » 05 Nov 2018 10:04

Translation"

" Good day.
There is a Belgian TV documentary which tells about the massacre. I can't find it because I don't have the title. Would it be possible to send me a link where I can look at it? I live in Abbeville myself".

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sylvan
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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by sylvan » 08 Mar 2019 21:25

Bonsoir,
Merci pour la traduction.

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DirkAH
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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by DirkAH » 04 Jun 2019 07:03

Might be of interest:

German propaganda booklet about the Abbeville massacre (GRAPHIC!):
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/4
Ciao

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Collaborationists killed without trial at Abbeville (1940)

Post by Sergey Romanov » 04 Jun 2019 08:00

> the term "fascist" only refers to Mediteranean state-nationalism.

Lol what nonsense. Nazi Germany was fascist.

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