"Crimes of the German Wehrmacht" Roadshow

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Aufklarung
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"Crimes of the German Wehrmacht" Roadshow

Post by Aufklarung » 01 Feb 2004 12:57

Protesters, police clash around German war crimes show in Hamburg

06:51 AM EST Feb 01
MANFRED ROLFSMEIER



HAMBURG, Germany (AP) - Leftist demonstrators pelted police with stones and trashed police cars during protests Saturday against a far-right rally called to denounce an exhibit on Second World War atrocities by regular German soldiers.

Police said they detained at least 11 protesters for disturbing the peace and briefly detained more than 100 others during clashes that erupted when counterdemonstrators tried to break through barriers separating them from the far-right rally.

Police sprayed the protesters with water cannon to drive them back and cleared street barricades set up by some of the 3,500 demonstrators.

The far-right march with some 1,500 activists from across Germany went ahead without major incident, police said.

About 2,500 police officers were deployed to prevent clashes by rival protesters near the site of the travelling show, which opened in Hamburg on Wednesday and has regularly attracted far-right demonstrators in Germany since it began in 1995.

The show's theme is that regular German troops - not just the Nazi SS or special killer commandos - were involved in the Holocaust, challenging the notion that the Wehrmacht fought honourably in the Second World War.

Complaints by historians who determined that some photos wrongly attributed war crimes to Wehrmacht soldiers led to a two-year pause, but the show reopened in an overhauled version in Berlin in 2001.

Hamburg is the last stop for Crimes of the German Wehrmacht, which ends March 28.


http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/040131/w013132.html

regards
A :)

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Post by michael mills » 01 Feb 2004 13:21

One of the protesting historians referred to is Bogdan Musial.

He demonstrated that a number of photos that were claimed to show German atrocities were actually showing the discovery of the bodies of prisoners who had been massacred by their NKVD guards in the first week after the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

So much for the credibility and intellectual honesty of the Leftists who put this exhibition together. For them, any photo showing German soldiers standing near piles of bodies was an indication of a German atrocity.

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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 01 Feb 2004 16:14

German veterans in general deserve to be respected, not constantly called criminals and murderers.

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 Feb 2004 17:43

Some relevant press releases.

Press release
Hamburg, November 9, 1999

Moratorium for the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

At a press conference held on November 4, 1999 in Hamburg, the Hamburg Institute for Social
Reseach and the Verein zur Forderung der Ausstellung ?Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der
Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944? announced that the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of
the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? (?Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis
1944?) will not be shown to the public for at least three months.
This moratorium means that the exhibition will not be shown as scheduled in Braunschweig,
Wiesbaden and Gie.en. Furthermore, the exhibition will not open as planned on December 2,
1999 in New York. We will inform you about new dates and exhibition venues as soon as we
can foresee when the review of the exhibition will be completed.
An academic commission will oversee the review and revision of the exhibition. The members
of this commission are:
Prof. Dr. Omer Bartov, New Brunswick
Dr. Cornelia Brink, Freiburg
Prof. Dr. Gerhard Hirschfeld, Stuttgart
Prof. Dr. Friedrich Kahlenberg, Koblenz
Prof. Dr. Manfred Messerschmidt, Freiburg
Prof. Dr. Reinhard Rurup, Berlin
Prof. Dr. Hans-Ulrich Thamer, Munster
Prof. Dr. Jan Philipp Reemtsma, the Institute's director, announced that no members of the
Institute's staff will be involved in the review of the exhibition. Therefore, for the duration of
this review, the position of exhibition director will be vacant. Reemtsma also announced that
the Institute will provide information on the status of the review of the exhibition at regular
intervals.
Please feel free to contact me for further information (Tel.: ++ 49 40 414097-12; e-mail:
Regine_Klose-Wolf@his-online.de)
Dr. Regine Klose-Wolf
(Press and public relations office)

Press release
Hamburg, January 19, 2000

Status of the review of the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

The academic committee which is reviewing the text and image documents in the exhibition
?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? has conducted to meetings to
date and is scheduled to convene again in February. Dr. Christian Streit has now joined the
committee, at the request of the members of the committee appointed previously (Dr. Cornelia
Brink, Prof. Omer Bartov, Prof. Gerhard Hirschfeld, Prof. Friedrich Kahlenberg, Prof. Dr,
Manfred Messerschmidt, Prof. Dr. Reinhard Rurup, Prof. Dr. Hans-Ulrich Thamer).
Historians Andrej Angrick and Peter Klein are assisting the committee in its work. At the
January meeting, Dr. Bogdan Musial presented his critique of the exhibition to the committee.
Dr. Krisztian Ungvary will present his critical assessment at the up-coming meeting.
It has already become apparent that the review of the documents used in the exhibition ?
including all the documents which were not the focus of the recent public controversy ? will
require more time than the three months previously announced as the minimum time period for
a moratorium on the presentation of the exhibition. It is anticipated that the exhibition will reopen
in the second half of the year 2000. Arrangements regarding the first presentation site for
the exhibition following the review process will be made when the precise date for re-opening
has been determined.

Press release
Hamburg, February 14, 2000

Third meeting of the academic committee reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

The academic committee which is reviewing the text and image documents in the exhibition
?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? met this past weekend for
the third time. Besides the committee members (present at this third meeting were Dr. C.
Brink, Prof. Dr. G. Hirschfeld, Prof. Dr. F. Kahlenberg, Prof. Dr. M. Messerschmidt, Prof. Dr.
R.Rurup, Prof. Dr. C. Streit, Prof. Dr. H.-U. Thamer), Prof. Dr. J.P. Reemtsma, Director of
the Hamburg Institute for Social Research also regularly participates in the meetings. At each
meeting, historians Andrej Angrick and Peter Klein report to the committee about their
progress in checking all image documents used in the exhibition in the relevant archives.
During a break in the meeting, Prof. Dr. Jan Philipp Reemtsma stated: ?As I explained in
November 1999 when the moratorium was announced, all documents used in the exhibition are
being checked, regardless of whether or not they have been the target of critique. This kind of
investigation requires a great deal of time, but the time taken up by the review process does
not allow direct conclusions regarding the extent of possible changes to be made in the
exhibition. The moratorium will be extended beyond the three months originally announced as
the minimum time period required.?
Following Dr. Bogdan Musial who attended the January meeting, Dr. Krisztian Ungvary was
invited to last weekend's meeting to present his critique of the exhibition. Ungvary and Musial
gave detailed accounts of the critical assessments published in October of last year. The
discussion between Ungvary and the committee was very constructive.
At one of the next meetings, Hannes Heer, Dr. Bernd Boll and Dr. Walter Manoschek will
report to the committee and react to the critique presented by Musial and Ungvary.
To what extent the exhibition will be revised can be decided only after the review of all text and
image documents been completed and the various critical comments have been discussed and
evaluated.
Reemtsma also stated: ?The moratorium provides the Institute with an opportunity to present
a revised version of the exhibition, incorporating our reactions to critical comments and
objections into the exhibition itself. To date, our reactions to criticism could only be expressed
in interviews or public events organized at the various exhibition venues. In the revised version
of the exhibition, we also intend to address the issue of how crimes were defined at the time
with respect to perpetrators, accomplices and responsibility and the status of international law
of the time. Furthermore, we plan to include a section dealing with the debate about the
exhibition.?

Press release
Hamburg, March 21, 2000

Fourth meeting of the academic committee reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

The academic committee which is reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of
the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? met for the fourth time this past weekend.
At two previous meetings, Dr. Bogdan Musial and Dr. Krisztian Ungvary had accepted the
committee's invitation to elucidate in detail their critique of the exhibition. This weekend's
session was devoted to providing the authors of the exhibition (Hannes Heer, Dr. Walther
Manoschek, and Dr. Bernd Boll) with an opportunity for responding in equal detail to this
critique. The material presented by the authors was so extensive that the committee will
require a further meeting (tentatively scheduled to take place in April) to review it. The review
of all images and texts used in the exhibition is still underway and will be the focus of a future
committee meeting.

Press release
Hamburg, April 12, 2000

Fifth meeting of the academic committee reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

On Saturday, April 8, 2000, the members of the academic committee which is reviewing the
exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? (Dr. Cornelia
Brink, Prof. Dr. Gerhard Hirschfeld, Prof. Dr. Friedrich Kahlenberg, Prof. Dr. Manfred
Messerschmidt, Prof. Dr. Reinhard Rurup, Prof. Dr. Christian Streit, Prof. Dr. Hans-Ulrich
Thamer) met for the fifth time.
The committee members discussed the presentations made to date by both the critics of the
exhibition ? Dr. Bogdan Musial and Dr. Krisztian Ungvary ? and the authors of the exhibition
? Hannes Heer, Dr. Bernd Boll and Dr. Walther Manoschek. The committee also discussed the
latest reports on investigations conducted by Andrej Angrick, Peter Klein und Florian Dierl,
concerning the complexes White Russia, Serbia, and the war against the partisans. The
committee has requested that these three historians continue their work until all the images and
texts which appear in the exhibition have been checked. Since this process will take several
more months, the committee does not expect to complete its final report until the late summer.
After the committee adjourned, Prof. Dr. Jan Philipp Reemtsma informed the committee
members of preliminary plans for a transformation of the exhibition.

Press release
Hamburg, July 10, 2000

Seventh meeting of the academic committee reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944?

The academic committee which is reviewing the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of
the Wehrmacht, 1941 to 1944? met for the seventh time this past Saturday. All members of
the committee (Dr. Cornelia Brink, Prof. Dr. Omer Bartov, Prof. Dr. Gerhard Hirschfeld, Prof.
Dr. Friedrich Kahlenberg, Prof.Dr. Manfred Messerschmidt, Prof. Dr. Reinhard Rurup, Dr.
Christian Streit und Prof. Dr. Hans-Ulrich Thamer) attended the meeting.
Researchers Florian Dierl, Andrej Angrick and Peter Klein reported to the committee on their
on-going work in the following archives: Belorussian Archive for Film and Photographic
Documents, Dzerzhinsk; Documentation Archive of the Austrian Resistance Movement,
Vienna; GARF - State Archives of the Russian Federation, Moscow; War History Archive,
Prague; Russian State Archive for Film and Photographic Documents, Krasnogorsk. The three
historians are continuing the process of reviewing the legends of all photographs obtained from
these archives for use in the exhibition ?War of Extermination: Crimes of the Wehrmacht, 1941
to 1944?.
The committee intends to meet at least two more times this coming fall. The presentation of
the committee's expertise, tentatively scheduled for October 2000, will take place according to
present plans at a press conference conducted by the committee in early November.
Shortly after the presentation of the committee's report, the Hamburg Institute for Social
Research will invite interested journalists to a press conference at which the Institute will
announce its plans for a new presentation of the exhibition.

Press release
Hamburg, November 15, 2000

Statement of the Hamburg Institute for Social Research on the report of the committee reviewing the exhibition ?Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944?

The committee which reviewed the exhibition Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht
1941 bis 1944 submitted its final report to Jan Philipp Reemtsma in the Deutsche Bibliothek
in Frankfurt today.
In a first statement, Reemstma made the following remarks:
?Reviewing the exhibition entailed more time and work on the part of the committee than we
expected one year ago. I would like to express my sincere thanks to the members of the
committee and to their research assistants for their expert evaluation of the images and texts
shown in the exhibition.
?The results of the committee's work presented today confirm the decision of the Hamburg
Institute for Social Research to discontinue public showings of the exhibition
Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944. We greatly regret that we did
respond to a number of critics, whose objections have been shown to be correct, with due
earnestness and that we did not decide to impose a moratorium at an earlier date.
?Nonetheless, we reiterate that the key statement of the exhibition ? that the Wehrmacht lead a
war of aggression and annihilation ? is correct and is upheld.?
At a press conference to be held next week, the Hamburg Institute for Social Research will
explain its views on the committee's report in greater detail and present the basic conceptual
principles for a new exhibition about the crimes of the Wehrmacht.
Regine Klose-Wolf
Hamburg Institute for Social Research

Press release
Hamburg, November 15, 2000

Report of the academic committee reviewing the exhibition ?Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944? presented today in Frankfurt

The committee reviewing the exhibition Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941
bis 1944 presented its final report to the public at a press conference held in Frankfurt today.
At the press conference, committee members summarized the results of their review of all texts
and images shown in the exhibition.
The following committee members took part in the press conference:
Dr. Cornelia Brink,
Prof. Dr. Gerhard Hirschfeld,
Prof. Dr. Friedrich Kahlenberg,
Prof. Dr. Manfred Messerschmidt,
Prof. Dr. Reinhard Rurup,
Dr. Christian Streit,
Prof. Dr. Hans-Ulrich Thamer.
Prof. Dr. Omer Bartov was unfortunately unable to attend.
The English version of the committee's three page summary of the report and short
biographical notes on the committee members are available as PDF files:
Press release of the committee to review the exhibition
The members of the committee to review the exhibition
Hamburg Institute for Social Research

Press release
Hamburg, November 23, 2000

Hamburg Institute for Social Research announces the principles of the new concept for its exhibition about the war of annihilation

At a press conference held today in Hamburg, Jan Philipp Reemtsma, Director of the Hamburg
Institute for Social Research, presented the principles of the new concept for the exhibition
Vernichtungskrieg (War of Annihilation). Reemtsma stated that the results of the review by an
expert committee and further discussions in the Institute had lead to the decision to ?take leave
of the idea of merely revising the old exhibition.? Addressing the supporters and the visitors of
the old exhibition, Reemtsma said: ?I expressly regret the errors and flaws in the exhibition.?

Reemtsma thanked the independent committee that reviewed the exhibition Vernichtungskrieg.
Verbrechen der Wehrmacht 1941 bis 1944 (War of Annihilation: Crimes of the Wehrmacht,
1941-1944), which presented its report last week. The committee ?clearly defended the
authors of the exhibition and the Institute in the face of exaggerated critique? and determined
?that the basic statement of the exhibition about the intentional war of annihilation? was in
keeping with ?the state of research.? The Institute must, however, concentrate on the critical
passages in the report and the flaws reported on there are significant.


Reemtsma then presented the principles of the concept for the new exhibition
Vernichtungskrieg, which he referred to as also being the product of experience with debates
about the old exhibition. Reemtsma noted that, beginning last fall when the moratorium was
announced, he considered this pause to be an opportunity to include new aspects in the
exhibition, aspects which had been taken up in public discussions again and again since the
exhibition was first shown in 1995. The result is now a completely new exhibition, with the
concept of war crimes and thus questions of international law and military law at the center.
The individual rooms of the exhibition are devoted to various kinds of crimes: genocide, the
politics of hunger, war against the partisans, prisoners of war, repressive measures,
deportation.

Reemtsma then introduced Dr. Ulrike Jureit and Christoph Bitterberg, the spokespersons of
the 15 member research team responsible for preparing the new exhibition.

Ulrike Jureit described the manner in which the new exhibition will present its arguments and
its documentary material with examples from the section focussing on the genocide perpetrated
against the Jewish population of the Soviet Union. She went on to illustrate the new team's
critical approach to the use of photographic images with photo material from the site of the
Babi Yar massacre. Uncommented series of images, which were criticized by the expert
committee, will not be included in the new exhibition. The presentation will not leave it up to
the interpretation of visitors to decide whether a photograph shown in the exhibition has the
status of documentary evidence or serves merely as an illustration.

Dr. Hans-Jochen Vogel emphasized that the decision reached last November to call a
moratorium and to entrust an expert committee with the review was correct. The review not
only established what errors were made, it also facilitated the development of a learning
process, leading finally to the new concept. For him, Vogel stated, the central issue was that
this topic was not going to be laid to rest. In order to recognize new warning signs in time, this
period must be kept alive in people's consciousness, so Vogel.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 Feb 2004 17:46

Beppo Schmidt wrote:German veterans in general deserve to be respected, not constantly called criminals and murderers.


Certainly, just as Soviet veterans. But since we can talk about Soviet atrocities in Germany, we can talk about German atrocities in USSR, don't you think so?

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Post by Germania » 01 Feb 2004 18:01

Road Show is the perfect word for it! :lol:

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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 01 Feb 2004 18:42

But since we can talk about Soviet atrocities in Germany, we can talk about German atrocities in USSR, don't you think so?


did I ever say we can't?

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Post by xcalibur » 01 Feb 2004 19:06

michael mills wrote:One of the protesting historians referred to is Bogdan Musial.

He demonstrated that a number of photos that were claimed to show German atrocities were actually showing the discovery of the bodies of prisoners who had been massacred by their NKVD guards in the first week after the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

So much for the credibility and intellectual honesty of the Leftists who put this exhibition together. For them, any photo showing German soldiers standing near piles of bodies was an indication of a German atrocity.


And it's only those "Leftists" who are "intellectualy dishonest"? :roll:

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 Feb 2004 19:16

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
But since we can talk about Soviet atrocities in Germany, we can talk about German atrocities in USSR, don't you think so?


did I ever say we can't?


I'm glad we agree! :D

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 Feb 2004 19:17

xcalibur wrote:
michael mills wrote:One of the protesting historians referred to is Bogdan Musial.

He demonstrated that a number of photos that were claimed to show German atrocities were actually showing the discovery of the bodies of prisoners who had been massacred by their NKVD guards in the first week after the German invasion of the Soviet Union.

So much for the credibility and intellectual honesty of the Leftists who put this exhibition together. For them, any photo showing German soldiers standing near piles of bodies was an indication of a German atrocity.


And it's only those "Leftists" who are "intellectualy dishonest"? :roll:


Only for those with ideological blinders ;]

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Post by michael mills » 02 Feb 2004 00:35

One of the members of the academic commission set up to evaluate the criticisms of the exhibition made by Bogdan Musial among others was Omer Bartov.

In his book "Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen", Musial makes some rather trenchant criticisms of Bartov. The most telling criticism is that Bartov, in his work on the brutalisation of the German-Soviet war and the crimes that were committed during it, totally ignores the crimes committed by the NKVD during the first weeks of the war and the effect that they had on radicalising the actions of the Germans.

Given Bartov's history of ignoring Soviet crimes and concentrating only on German ones, his inclusion in the academic committee that evaluated the criticisms of the exhibition does not say much for the impartiality of that committee.

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Post by michael mills » 02 Feb 2004 00:44

Xcalibur wrote:

And it's only those "Leftists" who are "intellectualy dishonest"?


Partisans of any political tendency can be intellectually dishonest.

However, in general I have found that German historians who may be described as "moderate right" , eg Ernst Nolte, are intellectually honset in that they do not deny German crimes, but try to place them in context and see the big picture.

The German Leftist historians, some of whom used to be part of the East German establishment and used to produce works full of Communist propaganda, concentrate solely on German crimes and ignore the Soviet crimes that did so much to create the environment in which the German crimes were committed.

I have never seen any case where a moderate rightist historian (leaving out of the picture the extreme rightists) has published photos of German crimes, eg piles of bodies of Jews killed by german forces, and claimed that they were actually Soviet atrocities.

But the leftists who created the exhibition "Crimes of the Wehrmacht" did publish several pictures of Soviet crimes and claimed that they were German crimes. Photos of the bodies of prisoners killed by the NKVD in prisons in the West Ukraine were claimed to show victims of the Wehrmacht in Serbia!

That is why I say that in this case the leftist historians were intellectually dishonest.

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Post by Sergey Romanov » 02 Feb 2004 02:12

michael mills wrote:That is why I say that in this case the leftist historians were intellectually dishonest.


You have zero evidence for this assertion. These particular historians (not "the leftist historians") would be dishonest if they knowingly miscaptioned the photos in question.

PS: Let me repeat Committee's conclusion:
The committee "clearly defended the authors of the exhibition and the Institute in the face of exaggerated critique" and determined "that the basic statement of the exhibition about the intentional war of annihilation" was in keeping with "the state of research".

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Post by Panzermahn » 02 Feb 2004 10:57

Omer Bartov the head of the committee?

Please, not again with this extremely biased professor who is famous for his works of German rapes in Western and Eastern Front when it seems he is the only who do it and not other historians who is more established like John Keegan and Ian Kershaw

Again works from Christian Gerlach and Streit (leftist) shows how biased of their pseudo-scholarly research against the Wehrmacht

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Post by alf » 02 Feb 2004 12:54

Where does it say the that Dr Omer Bartov was the Head of the Committee or that he had any major impact on the research other than being one of a panel of 15 that accepted some legitmate concerns raised by Dr. Musial and others?

It seems a rather disingenous ploy by some to try and cast fresh doubts, and belittle yet again, trying to distract from the actual subject studied War Crimes of the Wehrmacht.

It is NOT about Russian atrocities (or NKVD) but an attempt by Germany to come to terms with its past. To try and lead the subject off that is a common ploy amongst the fringe of both the left and the right; to muddy the waters with doubts expressed and slurs and accustaions on individuals.

One of the members of the academic commission set up to evaluate the criticisms of the exhibition made by Bogdan Musial among others was Omer Bartov.

In his book "Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen", Musial makes some rather trenchant criticisms of Bartov. The most telling criticism is that Bartov, in his work on the brutalisation of the German-Soviet war and the crimes that were committed during it, totally ignores the crimes committed by the NKVD during the first weeks of the war and the effect that they had on radicalising the actions of the Germans

Given Bartov's history of ignoring Soviet crimes and concentrating only on German ones, his inclusion in the academic committee that evaluated the criticisms of the exhibition does not say much for the impartiality of that committee
.

Omer Bartov the head of the committee?

Please, not again with this extremely biased professor who is famous for his works of German rapes in Western and Eastern Front when it seems he is the only who do it and not other historians who is more established like John Keegan and Ian Kershaw

Again works from Christian Gerlach and Streit (leftist) shows how biased of their pseudo-scholarly research against the Wehrmacht


Simply because another scholar studies a field that is distasteful to some, ie German Atrocities rather than a pet subject like NKVD/Russian atrocities (which did occur also), that does NOT invalidate the research or work done by the individual or the committee they are part of.

I question why the need to belittle or sidetrack exists?

To be confronted by evidence and attempt to simply deny it by saying that a member of the committee is biased is not based on a search for knowledge. It merely means pre-existing predjuices need not be examined, the opposite of the search for knowledge in fact..

a far-right rally called to denounce an exhibit on Second World War atrocities by regular German soldiers
. History repeating itself, shades of book burning next?

As Goethe once said. "where they burn books they will burn people".

Intellectual freedom is about having a diversity of views debated. The post by Segey showing the process this Committee has worked through demonstrates that point.

And from the timeline and detail provided by Sergey, the panel examined the information provided by Musial and others for some years (2000 to 2003) in detail before releasing the information.

Uncommented series of images, which were criticized by the expert committee, will not be included in the new exhibition. The presentation will not leave it up to the interpretation of visitors to decide whether a photograph shown in the exhibition has the status of documentary evidence or serves merely as an illustration


.

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