Not joking, are you Omega Force?
THat is SS-Mann Kenneth Berry of the Britische Frei Korps in a photo together with Alfred Minchin, SS-Sturmann
Polish brutality against ethnic German civillians in WW2
-
Omega-Force
- Member
- Posts: 111
- Joined: 15 Mar 2003, 07:40
- Location: Earth
-
Benoit Douville
- Member
- Posts: 3184
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 02:13
- Location: Montréal
-
Omega-Force
- Member
- Posts: 111
- Joined: 15 Mar 2003, 07:40
- Location: Earth
Hello, I seem to remember reading an article in the Herald-Sun newspaper in Australia about ten years ago about a Pole who fled to Israel in 1994 after hearing that the Polish government was going to indict him for war crimes committed after the war on ethnic Germans who were in a labour camp. If anyone has got any information on this it would be appreciated.
-
David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Roo Boy -- The fellow's name was Salomon Morel. You can find some more information on these threads:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30737
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23121
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30737
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23121
-
Musashi
- Member
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 13 Dec 2002, 16:07
- Location: Coventry, West Midlands, the UK [it's one big roundabout]
- Contact:
So as you can recognize his name he was not a Pole, he was a Jew.David Thompson wrote:Roo Boy -- The fellow's name was Salomon Morel. You can find some more information on these threads:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30737
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23121
-
Musashi
- Member
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 13 Dec 2002, 16:07
- Location: Coventry, West Midlands, the UK [it's one big roundabout]
- Contact:
Hallo again Michael Millsmichael mills wrote: First, Polish Government welcoming the war.
Do you mean the Polish government was so stupid to welcome the war with the enemy who had more than twice bigger population, much more developed economy, industry and technologies? The difference in production of the steel was really huge. I don't remember the data. Would be the German demands acceptable for you?
Jya ganbatte,
Chris
Last edited by Musashi on 20 Feb 2004, 23:58, edited 1 time in total.
-
David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Musashi -- In regard to Salomon Morel, you said:
There used to be a group in the US called "Know-nothings." They flourished in the Nineteenth Century, although there are traces of them which remain to this day. They didn't want "foreigners," like Irish Catholics, Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, Jews, Frenchmen and that sort of people to be able to become citizens here and enjoy the same rights as "real Americans" descended from folks who came over the sea from Britain. Even if the "foreigners" were citizens of the US, the "Know-nothings" didn't recognize that and wanted them to go back where they came from.
But perhaps I have mistaken your meaning.
I have always thought that one's citizenship and one's religion were two different things. Using your formulation, there are no Polish people -- just Catholics, Hindus, atheists, Jains, Buddhists, Lutherans, etc.So as you can recognize his name he was not a Pole, he was a Jew.
There used to be a group in the US called "Know-nothings." They flourished in the Nineteenth Century, although there are traces of them which remain to this day. They didn't want "foreigners," like Irish Catholics, Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, Jews, Frenchmen and that sort of people to be able to become citizens here and enjoy the same rights as "real Americans" descended from folks who came over the sea from Britain. Even if the "foreigners" were citizens of the US, the "Know-nothings" didn't recognize that and wanted them to go back where they came from.
But perhaps I have mistaken your meaning.
-
michael mills
- Member
- Posts: 9000
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
- Location: Sydney, Australia
David Thompson wrote:
You are making a fundamental error in imposing American concepts of citizenship and religious adherence onto the situation in Poland in the 1930s.
In Poland at that time, there was a generally accepted identity between religious adherence and ethnic identity, or nationality. Those concepts were quite separate from citizenship in a state.
One of the essential components of Polish ethnic identity was adherence to the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants (whether Lutheran or Calvinist) who lived in Poland, were Polish citizens, and spoke Polish, were suspected of really being secret Germans.
An example to demonstrate the identity of Catholicism and Polish ethnicity. After the annexation by Poland of the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse line in 1945, and the expulsion of the German population, all the churches in the area were reconsecrated by the Polish Catholic bishops, a for of purification. In other words, for the area to be truly Polish, it had to become Catholic, and be cleansed of all vestiges of Protestantism (and of German Catholicism). And that happened under a Communist regime!
Note that the reconsecration of the formerly German churches was ordered by Cardinal Wyszinski, not by the Vatican. It was an expression of Polish nationalism by means of Catholicism, rather than of Catholicism per se.
As for the Jews, the great majority of them regarded themselves not as members of the Polish nation, but as members of a transnational Jewish nation in exile, who happened to be living in Poland. That was the view not only of traditionalist, ultra-orthodox Jews, but also of secular socialist Jews such the members of the Bund, who were atheists and identified themselves not as adherents of a religion, Judaism, but solely as members of a Jewish nation.
The fact that those self-defined members of the Jewish nation were citizens of the Polish state makes no difference. At that time there was no Jewish state of which they could be members.
Accordingly, the statement that Solomon Morel was a Jew not a Pole is just as correct and meaningful as the statement that Arthur Greiser was a German not a Pole.
The concept of Polish nationhood is fairly recent, dating from the 19th Century. In the medieval period, ie up to the end of the 18th century, Poland was a state of legally defined estates, not a nation state in the modern sense. There were four estates
1. The nobility, or Szlachta, including all persons owing military service, from the highest magnates down to impoverished country gentry. Only this estate was considered to constitute the Polish nation (natio polonica).
2. The burghers, or town-dwellers. These were of various ethnic origin, including Germans, Armenians and Scots, and were not considered to be part of the "nation polonica", although they were subjects of the King of Poland.
3. The Jews, who had a clearly defined legal status, and really constituted a socio-economic class with specific economic functions. As non-Christians they could not legally have permanent residence, and had the status of resident aliens. Their presence in Poland was legally a privilege granted by the King, the equivalent of a "green card".
4. The peasants, who constituted the vast bulk of the population, and spoke various languages, Polish, Ruthenian, Lithuanian. They were considered merely as a work-force without any nationality.
From the late 18th century, and during the course of the 19th, the concept of Polish nationality changed, and was extended from the szlachta to incorporate all Christian subjects of the Polish state. The Jews had always had their own concept of nationhood, and certainly did not want to become part of a Polish nation, although they were willing to accept Polish citizenship (or Russian, Prussian and Austrian) as a means of gaining security of tenure.
David, if you want to use an American analogy for purposes of comparison, the best one would be the legal status of registered members of the various Native American nations, who are simultaneously citizens of the United States and members of independent nations, the independence of which is recognised by treaties with the United States.
David,I have always thought that one's citizenship and one's religion were two different things. Using your formulation, there are no Polish people -- just Catholics, Hindus, atheists, Jains, Buddhists, Lutherans, etc.
You are making a fundamental error in imposing American concepts of citizenship and religious adherence onto the situation in Poland in the 1930s.
In Poland at that time, there was a generally accepted identity between religious adherence and ethnic identity, or nationality. Those concepts were quite separate from citizenship in a state.
One of the essential components of Polish ethnic identity was adherence to the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants (whether Lutheran or Calvinist) who lived in Poland, were Polish citizens, and spoke Polish, were suspected of really being secret Germans.
An example to demonstrate the identity of Catholicism and Polish ethnicity. After the annexation by Poland of the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse line in 1945, and the expulsion of the German population, all the churches in the area were reconsecrated by the Polish Catholic bishops, a for of purification. In other words, for the area to be truly Polish, it had to become Catholic, and be cleansed of all vestiges of Protestantism (and of German Catholicism). And that happened under a Communist regime!
Note that the reconsecration of the formerly German churches was ordered by Cardinal Wyszinski, not by the Vatican. It was an expression of Polish nationalism by means of Catholicism, rather than of Catholicism per se.
As for the Jews, the great majority of them regarded themselves not as members of the Polish nation, but as members of a transnational Jewish nation in exile, who happened to be living in Poland. That was the view not only of traditionalist, ultra-orthodox Jews, but also of secular socialist Jews such the members of the Bund, who were atheists and identified themselves not as adherents of a religion, Judaism, but solely as members of a Jewish nation.
The fact that those self-defined members of the Jewish nation were citizens of the Polish state makes no difference. At that time there was no Jewish state of which they could be members.
Accordingly, the statement that Solomon Morel was a Jew not a Pole is just as correct and meaningful as the statement that Arthur Greiser was a German not a Pole.
The concept of Polish nationhood is fairly recent, dating from the 19th Century. In the medieval period, ie up to the end of the 18th century, Poland was a state of legally defined estates, not a nation state in the modern sense. There were four estates
1. The nobility, or Szlachta, including all persons owing military service, from the highest magnates down to impoverished country gentry. Only this estate was considered to constitute the Polish nation (natio polonica).
2. The burghers, or town-dwellers. These were of various ethnic origin, including Germans, Armenians and Scots, and were not considered to be part of the "nation polonica", although they were subjects of the King of Poland.
3. The Jews, who had a clearly defined legal status, and really constituted a socio-economic class with specific economic functions. As non-Christians they could not legally have permanent residence, and had the status of resident aliens. Their presence in Poland was legally a privilege granted by the King, the equivalent of a "green card".
4. The peasants, who constituted the vast bulk of the population, and spoke various languages, Polish, Ruthenian, Lithuanian. They were considered merely as a work-force without any nationality.
From the late 18th century, and during the course of the 19th, the concept of Polish nationality changed, and was extended from the szlachta to incorporate all Christian subjects of the Polish state. The Jews had always had their own concept of nationhood, and certainly did not want to become part of a Polish nation, although they were willing to accept Polish citizenship (or Russian, Prussian and Austrian) as a means of gaining security of tenure.
David, if you want to use an American analogy for purposes of comparison, the best one would be the legal status of registered members of the various Native American nations, who are simultaneously citizens of the United States and members of independent nations, the independence of which is recognised by treaties with the United States.
-
David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Michael -- You said, in regard to Salomon Morel:
You have misapprehended the time frame. Polish attempts to extradite Morel ended in late 1998, and Musashi's post, with its observations about Morel being a Jew rather than a Pole, is dated today. Neither his remark, nor my comment, have anything to do with Poland in the 1930s.
You are making a fundamental error in imposing American concepts of citizenship and religious adherence onto the situation in Poland in the 1930s.
You have misapprehended the time frame. Polish attempts to extradite Morel ended in late 1998, and Musashi's post, with its observations about Morel being a Jew rather than a Pole, is dated today. Neither his remark, nor my comment, have anything to do with Poland in the 1930s.
That's not true, although it is a side issue. Poland is using a last ditch effort, an accusation of genocide, to get him back to Poland. The Jewish State has ignored this effort as well, secure in the knowledge that the US will support Israel without question on this issue.Polish attempts to extradite Morel ended in late 1998, and Musashi's post, with its observations about Morel being a Jew rather than a Pole, is dated today.
-
David Thompson
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23724
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Dan -- I said:
You said:Polish attempts to extradite Morel ended in late 1998, and Musashi's post, with its observations about Morel being a Jew rather than a Pole, is dated today.
If Polish efforts to extradite Morel are still ongoing, I stand corrected, and good luck to Poland. In any event, and as you noticed, the remarks in question involve current events -- not Poland in the 1930s.That's not true, although it is a side issue. Poland is using a last ditch effort, an accusation of genocide, to get him back to Poland. The Jewish State has ignored this effort as well, secure in the knowledge that the US will support Israel without question on this issue.
-
Musashi
- Member
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 13 Dec 2002, 16:07
- Location: Coventry, West Midlands, the UK [it's one big roundabout]
- Contact:
David, there is a rule - the Israeli never deliver their citizens and that is the main problem. I remember many stories when Polish bussinessmen stole or tricked huge amounts of money in Poland and then they gained the Israeli citizenship. Now they are safe and they live like the kings...
Of course the Jews were the Polish citizens before WW II. However this topic is about the ethnic Polish-German confilict, so I informed Morel was a Jew, not a Pole. Its very irritable when somebody writes (for example Panzermahn or Viriato; I can find you the quotes) that the Poles suffered "only" about 3 millions casualties during WW II and the rest were Jews and other minorities. They were also the Polish citizens, so the number of casualties was above six millions. Michael Mills' post is very informative. The Jews isolated themselves on their own wish...
Of course the Jews were the Polish citizens before WW II. However this topic is about the ethnic Polish-German confilict, so I informed Morel was a Jew, not a Pole. Its very irritable when somebody writes (for example Panzermahn or Viriato; I can find you the quotes) that the Poles suffered "only" about 3 millions casualties during WW II and the rest were Jews and other minorities. They were also the Polish citizens, so the number of casualties was above six millions. Michael Mills' post is very informative. The Jews isolated themselves on their own wish...