Polish brutality against ethnic German civillians in WW2

[David Thompson]

Yerbamatt -- Please do not post irrelevant and distracting images, such as flying pigs, in this section of the forum.

[Peter H]

The WW1 picture is from a propaganda film depicting the supposed 'crucified' Canadian soldier 1915,impaled to a barn door by the beastly Hun!

[Beppo Schmidt]

If you are going to ask for sources that Germans in Poland were treated cruelly- as in deported- which is common knowledge, I may as well ask for sources that Germans treated Poles cruelly.

[yerbamatt]

Yerbamatt -- Please do not post irrelevant and distracting images, such as flying pigs, in this section of the forum.

Hey David, you're the boss and you set all the rules, so everybody gotta stick to them. Sorry, no more PFO's (Porky Flying Objects), I promise!

Regards...

PS. In my defense I gotta say I really hoped the above image would give significant weight to my statement, like Chan's pictures (obviously brewed by Dr. Josef Goebbels) had given to his.

[yerbamatt]

If you are going to ask for sources that Germans in Poland were treated cruelly- as in deported- which is common knowledge, I may as well ask for sources that Germans treated Poles cruelly.

"Common knowledge" ? What's that ? In Canada we call this kind of crap a "stereotype". I'm grossly afraid it's another BS, like Mr. Mills' already legendary "Die Bilder gleichen sich" ('the pictures are similar")...

I bet you've very conveniently forgotten the topic - we are here taking about " POLISH BRUTALITY AGAINST ETHNIC GERMAN CIVILIANS IN WWII", am I correct?

Well, the WWII started September 1st, 1939, the western part of prewar Poland with most of the Germans (Upper Silesia, Posen, West Prussia) were conquered by your Wehrmacht in less than a week. In the matter of a mere few days ( in Bromberg just TWO) it was physically impossible for Poles to exterminate such an astronomical number of Germans (as much as 58,000) . That was a crystal clear example of the so-called "Greuelpropaganda" or a piece of CD (camel dung), as you wish. I definitely do not deny sporadic incidents of simple, obvious rage or vengengence (after all it's Poland and not Germany, which was suddenly attacked) but that's all - nothing planned and implemented on systematic, "industrial" scale like on another, German side.

During German occupation, which lasted more than five years, again, it was impossible for Poles, even if they wished it in their wildest dreams, to treat cruelly their "neighbours" - the response would be swift and disproportionate in its severity from the occupying power.

And then comes the finale - the last few months of 1945. Most of the Germans fled out of fear before the Soviet Army and not Poles. And those Germans, who died in this period (the WWII, I remind you, ended May 9th, 1945), were killed during fights in Breslau, Danzig, Posen etc and allied, carpet bombings (let's take for example Swinemünde in April 1945). No major pogroms from the Polish part - simply there was not enough Polish population before May 9th, 1945 to implement it in Silesia, Pomerania, Eastern Brandenburg and southern part of East Prussia, i.e. the Reich proper. Any complains in the above matter you may address to the Soviet Army and not to the Poles.

If you further insist on your baseless claims , I can gladly help you. Please, answer to my few questions:

- name all concentration camps, designed and erected by Poles to exterminate German civilians
- name a part of Berlin, where Poles erected a ghetto for German Jews and a date, when they liquidated it
- precise date, when Polish troops razed Berlin to the ground
- names of all German villages, razed by Polish soldiers during Polish occupation of Germany
- names of all German scholars and priests, killed by Poles
- name of Polish equivalent of "Lebensborn", where kidnapped German kids were forcefully polonized and then adopted by Polish families

I'm gently reminding you again - all in the period between September 1, 1939 and May 9, 1945.

Take your time - I'm quite patient by nature...

[Beppo Schmidt]

- name all concentration camps, designed and erected by Poles to exterminate German civilians
- name a part of Berlin, where Poles erected a ghetto for German Jews and a date, when they liquidated it
- precise date, when Polish troops razed Berlin to the ground
- names of all German villages, razed by Polish soldiers during Polish occupation of Germany
- names of all German scholars and priests, killed by Poles
- name of Polish equivalent of "Lebensborn", where kidnapped German kids were forcefully polonized and then adopted by Polish families

I never said any of those things happened. Calm down and stop talking to me like I'm some Holocaust denier, if you'd quoted my whole quote, you would have seen where I said the incidents were greatly exaggerated by Hitler and Göbbels for their own purposes (to justify brutality against the Poles).

I definitely do not deny sporadic incidents of simple, obvious rage or vengengence (after all it's Poland and not Germany, which was suddenly attacked) but that's all - nothing planned and implemented on systematic, "industrial" scale like on another, German side.

Well there you go, I said some ethnic German Polish citizens were treated cruelly so I really don't see what we've got to be getting in this heated discussion about. I never said the Poles carried out a systematic genocide of Germans, so I don't see why you're asking me for evidence of one.

However, as for ethnic Germans being deported:

For their part, immediately following the German invasion the Poles, reacting to real or alleged cases of sabotage by the German minority, arrested some 10-15,000 ethnic Germans and force-marched them eastwards. Though the brutality accompanying the marches was later hugely magnified for propaganda purposes, the prisoners were indeed often beaten, or otherwise maltreated, and subjected to violence by the local population as they passed through Polish towns and cities. In some cases, those unfit to walk any further were shot

Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1936-1945 Hubris, pg. 241-242

These people were Polish citizens who happened to be of German background. I think force-marching them from their homes counts as treating them cruelly. I never said they were placed in camps or murdered in large numbers, but I stand by my claim that ethnic German Polish citizens were deported, which is all I claimed in the first place.

[Enkpitt]

Can you tell me how you recognised that they were Germans? Did you check they passports or what?

Don't you guys think that maybe the germans were the victims and the allies lied to us about the germans? How do you know they are not germans? If someone would have told you that they were ethnic polish civilians abused by germans, would you believe the person and not ask for passports? I think you would because the allies have filled your head with bullsh*t. hey the germans were no angels either but still.

[David Thompson]

Enkpitt -- If you have evidence, post it, and spare the readers your insulting speculations.

Yerbamatt -- Avoid insulting asides when posting.

[Enkpitt]

Evidence of what David?All I am saying is that maybe the germans weren't that bad. Hitler said the germans were the good guys the allies said they were the bad guys. Which one do you believe? personaly I think they were all bad. Thats just my MHO.

[Beppo Schmidt]

Evidence of what David?

You earlier stated:

Don't you guys think that maybe the germans were the victims and the allies lied to us about the germans?

[Enkpitt]

All I am saying is that maybe the germans weren't that bad. Hitler said the germans were the good guys the allies said they were the bad guys. Which one do you believe? personaly I think they were all bad. Thats just my MHO.

[yerbamatt]

Yerbamatt -- Avoid insulting asides when posting.

Just trying to be sarcastic, David . If I've ever been heavyhanded and offended anybody (I've got no complains from any targeted part so far), sorry about that.

Regards...

[yerbamatt]

- name all concentration camps, designed and erected by Poles to exterminate German civilians
- name a part of Berlin, where Poles erected a ghetto for German Jews and a date, when they liquidated it
- precise date, when Polish troops razed Berlin to the ground
- names of all German villages, razed by Polish soldiers during Polish occupation of Germany
- names of all German scholars and priests, killed by Poles
- name of Polish equivalent of "Lebensborn", where kidnapped German kids were forcefully polonized and then adopted by Polish families

I never said any of those things happened. Calm down and stop talking to me like I'm some Holocaust denier, if you'd quoted my whole quote, you would have seen where I said the incidents were greatly exaggerated by Hitler and Göbbels for their own purposes (to justify brutality against the Poles).

I definitely do not deny sporadic incidents of simple, obvious rage or vengengence (after all it's Poland and not Germany, which was suddenly attacked) but that's all - nothing planned and implemented on systematic, "industrial" scale like on another, German side.

Well there you go, I said some ethnic German Polish citizens were treated cruelly so I really don't see what we've got to be getting in this heated discussion about. I never said the Poles carried out a systematic genocide of Germans, so I don't see why you're asking me for evidence of one.

However, as for ethnic Germans being deported:

For their part, immediately following the German invasion the Poles, reacting to real or alleged cases of sabotage by the German minority, arrested some 10-15,000 ethnic Germans and force-marched them eastwards. Though the brutality accompanying the marches was later hugely magnified for propaganda purposes, the prisoners were indeed often beaten, or otherwise maltreated, and subjected to violence by the local population as they passed through Polish towns and cities. In some cases, those unfit to walk any further were shot

Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1936-1945 Hubris, pg. 241-242

These people were Polish citizens who happened to be of German background. I think force-marching them from their homes counts as treating them cruelly. I never said they were placed in camps or murdered in large numbers, but I stand by my claim that ethnic German Polish citizens were deported, which is all I claimed in the first place.

Hey Beppo,

I've just checked your previous posts and believe me - I haven't been able to find any of your "some Germans". There's another one though - "many Germans" and this makes a big difference, at least for me. Anyway, I can agree that some of them could be maltreated, yet, I repeat again, of obvious reasons, mentioned above and not on massive, systematic scale. What happened was very spontanious - after all I've never heard about anti-German pogroms in Poland, that's first.

Second - as for Ian Kershaw's quote, please carefully read it once again - there's nothing about dragging Germans, living in Poland out of their homes. In reality many of them were vigilantees and saboteurs, caught red-handed. My question is - why were they not liquidated on the spot by Poles (it would definitely happen and it did in most of the cases on another side, without any fuss), instead "invited" for a long walk? Most of them survived and that's a crystal clear proof things had not been that bad for them - they were quite lucky to be alive.

Third - since all roads and railways in Poland were an easy prey for winged knights from Luftwaffe, some Germans were definitely killed by a "friendly fire". Besides, I guess Poles were not expected to deliver "Cook's Wagon Lits" cars for them - they had to walk, simply because it was the cheapest and most affordable mean of transport at the time.

And last but not least - compare alleged 10,000-15,000 deportees (in my humble opinion it was sucked out of somebody's dirty toe) with the number of Germans living in prewar Poland. It's less than 2 (TWO) % of them. Things were quite different for Poles in areas annected to the Reich immediately after September 1939 - hundreds od thousands of them were deported east to the newly created GG, tens of thousands killed in executions all over Warthegau, West Prussia and Upper Silesia.

I do hope nobody here attempts to equal sporadic Polish misdeeds with systematic genocidal policy, waged by Germans against the defeated Poland.

Regards...

[David Thompson]

Enkpitt -- You said:

Don't you guys think that maybe the germans were the victims and the allies lied to us about the germans? How do you know they are not germans? If someone would have told you that they were ethnic polish civilians abused by germans, would you believe the person and not ask for passports? I think you would because the allies have filled your head with bullsh*t. hey the germans were no angels either but still. (emphasis added by moderator - DT)

I replied:

If you have evidence, post it, and spare the readers your insulting speculations.

Your response was:

Evidence of what David?All I am saying is that maybe the germans weren't that bad. Hitler said the germans were the good guys the allies said they were the bad guys. Which one do you believe? personaly I think they were all bad. Thats just my MHO.

I think it's pretty clear what you're saying. You're saying:

(1) "maybe the germans were the victims;"
(2) "the allies lied to us about the germans;"
(3) "How do you know they are not germans?" and
(4) "the allies have filled your [the reader's] head with bullsh*t."

I asked you to post proof and you posted an evasion. When a reader called you on the evasion you gave an unresponsive answer quoting yourself.

This is a research area of the forum. If you're not going to post proof, don't bother with the "MHO" part of the post either.

The rules for posters in this section of the forum can be seen at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47046

Non-complying or redundant posts are subject to deletion after warning. This is yours.

[Enkpitt]

I have no proof. So I guess I'll just stop answering.
Let me ask you this though: Do you think that it is savagery and despicable to throw a molotov cocktail into a group of soldiers?