Mental Issues

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Benjamin Fanjoy
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Mental Issues

#1

Post by Benjamin Fanjoy » 04 Jul 2002, 07:30

I was watching the documentry special "The Final Solution" from the World at War series, and I began to wonder, how on earth could those SS men that were part of Eintzhatzgrupen kill men, women, children by the thousands in 8 hour shifts, and not go insane???

Imagine the state of mind of these SS men, to have to do this everyday, and lest not forget the people they butchered.

Regards, Ben

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Re: Mental Issues

#2

Post by Ovidius » 04 Jul 2002, 08:46

Benjamin Fanjoy wrote:I was watching the documentry special "The Final Solution" from the World at War series, and I began to wonder, how on earth could those SS men that were part of Eintzhatzgrupen kill men, women, children by the thousands in 8 hour shifts, and not go insane???
A lot of them did go insane. This is considered to have been the reason for which they shifted over to gas.

~Ovidius


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#3

Post by Benjamin Fanjoy » 04 Jul 2002, 08:47

That is true, but even the one's who worked the gas chambers or the krematoria must have felt the same.

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#4

Post by Ovidius » 04 Jul 2002, 11:57

Benjamin Fanjoy wrote:That is true, but even the one's who worked the gas chambers or the krematoria must have felt the same.
There is said that when the gaschambers were used, the armed guardsmen sat aside, while some Jewish prisoners led the other Jews inside and cleared the chamber after gassing. Also the crematoria stokers were also Jews, which, of course, were periodically silenced by shooting and replaced by fresh ones.

~Ovidius

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#5

Post by Roberto » 04 Jul 2002, 13:28

Ovidius wrote:
Benjamin Fanjoy wrote:That is true, but even the one's who worked the gas chambers or the krematoria must have felt the same.
There is said that when the gaschambers were used, the armed guardsmen sat aside, while some Jewish prisoners led the other Jews inside and cleared the chamber after gassing. Also the crematoria stokers were also Jews, which, of course, were periodically silenced by shooting and replaced by fresh ones.

~Ovidius
Besides, supervising the gassing and subsequent body disposal required a much smaller number of SS men than mass shootings.

As to the psychological considerations, the following may be of interest:
Himmler was a chicken as well as a chicken farmer. In July or August, 1941, Himmler visited Einsatzgruppe B where he witnessed a mass shooting at Minsk. An eyewitness describing what happened during Himmler's visit to Minsk while watched the killing of a group of one hundred Jews:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."

Arad, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka", p. 8.

In reaction to the experience of watching 100 human beings murdered in this fashion, Himmler ordered that a more "humane" method of execution be found. (Reitlinger SS 183) Otto Ohlendorf explained in his testimony at Nuremberg "That was a special order from Himmler to the effect that women and children were not to be exposed to the mental strain of the executions; and thus the men of the kommandos, mostly married men, should not be compelled to aim at women and children."

This order was first implemented with gas vans designed by Dr. Becker. Later the terrible extermination camps, where millions of people were gassed and starved, were established.

The infamous extermination camps were set up shortly after Himmler's visit to Minsk. The first of these was Chelmo which began gassing Jews and others on December 8, 1941. Treblinka, Sobibor, and Majdanek followed in the spring of 1942. Additionally the most famous extermination camp, Auschwitz, began experimenting with Zyclon-B in September, 1941. While mass gassings were conducted at Auschwitz in the spring of 1942, the real work of mass extermination started with the operation of "Bunker 2" on July 4, 1942 (D-VP 305)
Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/intro-einsatz/

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#6

Post by Ovidius » 04 Jul 2002, 18:09

Roberto wrote:
Himmler was a chicken as well as a chicken farmer. In July or August, 1941, Himmler visited Einsatzgruppe B where he witnessed a mass shooting at Minsk. An eyewitness describing what happened during Himmler's visit to Minsk while watched the killing of a group of one hundred Jews:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."

Arad, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka", p. 8.
I remember this issue to have been discussed also on the old forum, and the comment of Scott Smith in the line of: "Himmler being a chicken farmer, he must have been accustomed to see blood". :roll:

~Ovidius

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#7

Post by Benoit Douville » 04 Jul 2002, 19:26

Ben,

I wonder also why nobody revolt about all those killings, i mean a large scale revolt among the SS. They were so endoctrinated.

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#8

Post by Benjamin Fanjoy » 04 Jul 2002, 19:55

Yes I wonder that to

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Scott Smith
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#9

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jul 2002, 03:34

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Himmler was a chicken as well as a chicken farmer. In July or August, 1941, Himmler visited Einsatzgruppe B where he witnessed a mass shooting at Minsk. An eyewitness describing what happened during Himmler's visit to Minsk while watched the killing of a group of one hundred Jews:

As the firing started, Himmler became more and more nervous. At each volley, he looked down at the ground .... The other witness was Obergruppenfuehrer von dem Bach-Zelewski...Von dem Bach addressed Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer, those were only a hundred....Look at the eyes of the men in this commando, how deeply shaken they are. Those men are finished ["fertig"] for the rest of their lives. What kind of followers are we training here? Either neurotics or savages."

Arad, "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka", p. 8.
I remember this issue to have been discussed also on the old forum, and the comment of Scott Smith in the line of: "Himmler being a chicken farmer, he must have been accustomed to see blood". :roll:
Yes, I never cease to be amazed at the notion that those scary Nazis wet their pants at the sight of blood! :lol:

Their critics seem to want to simultaneously argue that the Nazis were bloodthirsty killers but at the same time cowards.

The fact is that WAR is mass-murder. Millions can be killed by bombs and millions by bayonets and it is not so hard to find soldiers who will do either. Even if the enemy was men, women and children it would have required only a little more political reliability from certain soldiers, that's all. Kill-or-get-killed smoothly becomes kill-the-enemy.

Remember the episode of M*A*S*H where the bomber crewman who has been carpet-bombing the North Koreans with his B-29 suddenly thinks he's Jesus? Well, he would get a "Section 8" as a mental case and a replacement would easily be found.

Like from the Joseph Heller novel Catch-22 you have to be CRAZY to fly and risk almost certain death just to bomb innocent people. But if you ARE crazy you will be relieved of the burden. If you ask to be relieved you are a coward and not crazy, because if you were crazy you would not try to be relieved of duty. In the movie it is hilarious when the Jewish psychiatrist tries to explain this paradox.

Even more hilarious is the notion that Nazis would have worn dresses like Klinger or Yossarian to try to avoid the butcher's call. So chicken-farmer Himmler gave them gaschambers instead.
:wink:
Last edited by Scott Smith on 05 Jul 2002, 03:56, edited 1 time in total.

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#10

Post by Benjamin Fanjoy » 05 Jul 2002, 03:39

Scott wrote:
The fact is that WAR is mass-murder. Millions can be killed by bombs and millions by bayonets and it is not so hard to find soldiers who will do either. Even if the enemy was men, women and children it would have required only a little more political reliability from certain soldiers, that's all. Kill-or-get-killed smoothly becomes kill-the-enemy.
Very good point Scott

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#11

Post by Tarpon27 » 05 Jul 2002, 06:40

Scott wrote:
Even if the enemy was men, women and children it would have required only a little more political reliability from certain soldiers, that's all. Kill-or-get-killed smoothly becomes kill-the-enemy.
You ever been in combat? Around non-combatants, caught up in fire zones?
Like from the Joseph Heller novel Catch-22 you have to be CRAZY to fly and risk almost certain death just to bomb innocent people.
Yep, that is all there has ever been to any aerial bombing campaign. How trite.

Sheesh.

Regards,

Mark

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#12

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jul 2002, 07:56

Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott wrote:Even if the enemy was men, women and children it would have required only a little more political reliability from certain soldiers, that's all. Kill-or-get-killed smoothly becomes kill-the-enemy.
You ever been in combat? Around non-combatants, caught up in fire zones?
Me? No. But I was not speaking from experience, which would be a statistical-sample-size of one anyway. Yeah, being a veteran of unpopular wars is pretty tough.
Mark wrote:
Scott wrote:Like from the Joseph Heller novel Catch-22 you have to be CRAZY to fly and risk almost certain death just to bomb innocent people.
Yep, that is all there has ever been to any aerial bombing campaign. How trite.
No--see, war is REALLY a John Wayne movie, Mark. Like when a giddy Mr. Sulu remarks at the end of The Green Berets about the choppers: "We couldn't win this war without them."

"Fighting men from the sky..."

Image
WWII Satire

Mike Nichols' "Catch 22" is an antiwar comedy that follows a bizarre group of US Army Airmen stationed in Italy near the end of World War II.

The hero is Yossarian (Alan Arkin), a B-25 bombardier who wants out. He has flown the requisite number of missions but can't go home because his commanding officer keeps raising the number of missions required.

To make matters worse, when he tries to get himself grounded, he runs into the now-famous Catch 22. You see, he wants to be grounded on the grounds that his wartime action has made him crazy, yet by asking to be grounded because he doesn't want to fly any more clearly show that he isn't crazy - so he has to keep flying.

This absurd catch is but one of the film's absurdities as parachutes are traded by Milo Minderbender's commercial syndicate (leaving a share in the syndicate in their place, to be discovered by airmen when they try to don their chutes), medals are given for failure, etc.

Catch 22 features an all star cast put into absurd situations, yet if this is a comedy there aren't too many laughs. It's more of a statement on the absurdity of war, a typical Vietnam-era response made by people who undoubtedly never had to fight for anything. Still, it has many good moments, and some spectacular bits of moviemaking.

Fans of WWII airplanes will also enjoy the marvelous collection of North American B-25 bombers the production assembled for the film. Today they'd just do it with models and digital effects and, while some of the shots use special effects, there are enough of the real planes on screen to keep aviation nuts very, very happy.

http://www.technofile.com/dvds/catch_22.html
And Mark, you can click my link to order the Heller book online from Amazon to support this very site!

CLICK! Image

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#13

Post by Tarpon27 » 06 Jul 2002, 17:10

I read _Catch 22_ for the first time over two decades ago.
...risk almost certain death just to bomb innocent people
...is a phrase that reeks of hyperbole.

Almost "certain death" just to bomb "innocent people"?

LOL! :wink:

Regards,

Mark

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AIRWAR is CLEAN, not like TRENCHWAR...

#14

Post by Scott Smith » 08 Jul 2002, 07:40

Tarpon27 wrote:
...risk almost certain death just to bomb innocent people
...is a phrase that reeks of hyperbole.

Almost "certain death" just to bomb "innocent people"?
I guess Italian civilians were not "innocent people." :mrgreen:

Yeah, "certain death" because the number of missions is determined by the odds of surviving them all. So you've survived your 25 missions and then the commanders decide that the risks are no longer as bad so the tour-of-duty is lengthened. But you've already completed your tour? So you are in effect being asked to run the gauntlet again, or until your unlucky number comes up. Infantrymen had better chances. Over 65% of aircrew were lost; that's not much better than the 75% for the U-boats. But we're not supposed to talk about the Good War so cynically, except from the German side, are we?
:)

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#15

Post by Tarpon27 » 08 Jul 2002, 14:31

Scott wrote:
Over 65% of aircrew were lost...

You know I have seen some remarkable figures on aircrew losses, and so far the highest I have yet found was 47.9% for Bomber Command, and that one is not even adequately sourced.

You have a URL or reference for your figures that I could look at?

Regards,

Mark

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