Making lamps out of jewis skin?

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 17 Feb 2004 18:41

I 've heard that there is a "Berlin(?) Natural history museum" stamp on the bottom of the "shrunken heads" of Buchenwald.

Can anyone post some pics of the underside of these? I have onle ever seen the profile and face on views.

Tony

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 18 Feb 2004 09:36

Hi,

This story about Germans making lamps from Jewish skins are totally BS propaganda which shows how well the extent of anti-German hatred during the Nuremberg trials especially the story of Ilse Koch making lampshades from Jewish skins

"Anyone undaunted by Nazi threats surely would not succumbed to those of the Western democracies. Konrad Morgen believe Ilse Koch is guilty of certain brutal crimes against concentration camp inmates, but the story of her making lampshades from Jewish skins is a TOTAL FABRICATION. The Americans forced SS Judge Konrad Morgen to give false evidence and testimony regarding Ilse Koch's Jewish Lampshades but he refused and was beaten badly..

Source

John Toland, Hitler, 1998 Wadsworth Edition
(Author's interview with Konrad Morgen in the 1970s)

See what Allied propaganda can do to innocent Germans?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 18 Feb 2004 09:56

Panzermahn -- Could I have a page citation to Toland on this claim (I can't tell whether you're quoting Toland here, or presenting your own conclusions):

"Anyone undaunted by Nazi threats surely would not succumbed to those of the Western democracies. Konrad Morgen believe Ilse Koch is guilty of certain brutal crimes against concentration camp inmates, but the story of her making lampshades from Jewish skins is a TOTAL FABRICATION. The Americans forced SS Judge Konrad Morgen to give false evidence and testimony regarding Ilse Koch's Jewish Lampshades but he refused and was beaten badly..

For readers interested in the subject, this thread, with links to other sites and their information, may be helpful:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3089

As for Ilse Koch, here is some information:

Koch, Ilse Kohler "Bitch of Buchenwald" (1906-1.9.1967) [SS-Hilferinnen] -- service, concentration camp (Konzentrationslager - KL) Buchenwald {arrested and put on trial 11 Apr 1947 by an American military tribunal at Dachau for the mistreatment and murder of allied nationals at KL Buchenwald (NYT 12 Apr 1947:5:4; NYT 15 Apr 1947:8:5; NYT 11 Jul 1947:6:3); convicted 12 Aug 1947 (NYT 13 Aug 1947:14:4); sentenced to life imprisonment 14 Aug 1947 (NYT 15 Aug 1947:5:2; LT 15 Aug 1947:4g); sentence commuted to 4 years imprisonment by Military Governor General Lucius D. Clay 16 Sept 1948 (NYT 17 Sept 1948:1:1; NYT 18 Sept 1948:6:2; NYT 21 Sept 1948:26:3; NYT 23 Sept 1948:28:6; NYT 24 Sept 1948:3:4; NYT 25 Sept 1948:6:8; NYT 30 Sept 1948:11:6; NYT 1 Oct 1948:11:1; NYT 8 Oct 1948:10:3; NYT 9 Oct 1948:3:2; NYT 18 Oct 1948:22:6; NYT 22 Oct 1948:5:1; NYT 23 Oct 1948:4:3; NYT 27 Dec 1948:1:4; NYT 25 May 1950:1:3; LT 17 Sept 1948:3c); new US trial barred by General Lucius D. Clay 22 Mar 1949 (NYT 23 Mar 1949:21:2); trial promised by German authorities 9 Oct 1948 (NYT 10 Oct 1948:19:4; NYT 17 Oct 1948:3:6; NYT 23 Mar 1949:21:2); extradition sought by East Germany 23 Mar 1949 (NYT 24 Mar 1949:18:3; NYT 23 Oct 1949:16:1); released from American custody 17 Oct 1949 (NYT 18 Oct 1949:2:3 & 11:2; NYT 25 Dec 1949:IV:5:5); arrested immediately after release by Bavarian police 17 Oct 1949 (LT 18 Oct 1949:3d); impending trial after release from American custody announced by authorities in Bavaria, West Germany 7 Jun 1949 (NYT 8 Jun 1949:8:4; NYT 6 Jul 1949:13:5; NYT 7 Aug 1949:16:2; NYT 13 Aug 1949:4:6); NYT 6 Oct 1949:11:1); committed to hospital for mental evaluation 4 Feb 1950 by German authorities (NYT 5 Feb 1950:31:1; NYT 11 Mar 1950:2:2); indicted by a West German court 25 May 1950 (NYT 26 May 1950:10:3; LT 26 May 1950:5b); impending trial announced by West German authorities 4 Jul 1950 (NYT 5 Jul 1950:20:6; NYT 29 Jul 1950:5:7); put on trial by a West German court at Augsburg 27 Nov 1950 on charges of murdering and mistreating prisoners at KL Buchenwald between 1938-1942 (NYT 28 Nov 1950:19:5; NYT 29 Nov 1950:22:3; NYT 30 Nov 1950:22:1; NYT 12 Dec 1950:20:6; NYT 16 Dec 1950:8:7; NYT 19 Dec 1950:15:5; NYT 30 Dec 1950:3:1; NYT 12 Jan 1951:2:5; NYT 12 Jan 1951:30:5; LT 28 Nov 1950:3d); convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment 15 Jan 1951 (NYT 16 Jan 1951:1:2; NYT 18 Jan 1951:15:2; LT 16 Jan 1951:4e; JuNSV Verfahren Lfd.Nr.262; LG Augsburg 510115; BGH 520422); appeal denied by the West German Supreme Court 22 Apr 1952 (LT 23 Apr 1952:5a); sued Bavaria to collect pension of executed husband SS-Standartenführer Karl Otto Koch, former commander of KL Buchenwald and KL Majdanek (NYT 18 Oct 1966:6:4); hanged herself at Aichach Prison, Bavaria 1 Sept 1967 (NYT 3 Sept 1967:1:4). SS judicial investigator Dr. jur. Konrad Morgen evaluated her as "a perverted, nymphomaniacal, hysterical, power-mad demon." (Snyder Ency 198; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 507; SS: Roll of Infamy p. 96; Buchenwald Report p. 43n; Third Reich Factbook - Marcus Wendel and Dean Robson, "SS personnel serving at Buchenwald," http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss-ca ... enwald.htm; Third Reich Factbook - Marcus Wendel and Dean Robson, "Buchenwald Trial," http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/warcr ... enwald.htm).}

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 18 Feb 2004 10:05

Hi David,

I try to find for you the page mentioned..Although the text aren't the same, but the meaning were.....I'm definitely sure about John Toland mentioning this..

David,

don't tell me that you yourself don't believe John Toland, your own American author who won the Pulitzer prize....?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 18 Feb 2004 10:13

Panzermahn -- (1) You're getting ready to put out a book. You should be professional about your allegations. If it's not a quote, don't make it look like one.

(2) You said:

don't tell me that you yourself don't believe John Toland, your own American author who won the Pulitzer prize....?

I have a great deal of respect for John Toland's works, but I'd like to see what he actually said. Then I'd like to check out his source or sources for myself, to the extent that they're available.

You should be aware that there have been allegations, which have proven to be false, of US guards mistreating accused war criminals. One such claim involving "the Van Roden report" is discussed on this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30254

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 18 Feb 2004 16:21

panzermahn wrote:Hi,

This story about Germans making lamps from Jewish skins are totally BS propaganda which shows how well the extent of anti-German hatred during the Nuremberg trials especially the story of Ilse Koch making lampshades from Jewish skins

"Anyone undaunted by Nazi threats surely would not succumbed to those of the Western democracies. Konrad Morgen believe Ilse Koch is guilty of certain brutal crimes against concentration camp inmates, but the story of her making lampshades from Jewish skins is a TOTAL FABRICATION. The Americans forced SS Judge Konrad Morgen to give false evidence and testimony regarding Ilse Koch's Jewish Lampshades but he refused and was beaten badly

Source

John Toland, Hitler, 1998 Wadsworth Edition
(Author's interview with Konrad Morgen in the 1970s)

See what Allied propaganda can do to innocent Germans?

This is not a direct quotation of Toland, rather more of a manipulation of his words. There is a quotation from Toland on this matter over at scrapbookpages.com in the Dachau Trials section. It suggests that Morgen did in the course of his investigation of the Kochs make inquiry into this charge but was unable to find sufficient evidence to support it, and therefore did not include it in his case against them. Infer what you will from that as it neither proves nor disproves the allegation. It is however interesting that he gave enough credence to the anecdotal evidence available to investigate the allegation at all.

And, as long as we're on the subject, Panzermahn, while it's true that there were some rather loose rules regarding introduction of evidence at these trials it's pretty absurd to conclude that all the damning evidence was elicited by beatings and other means of coercion. You have condemned the Kharkov trial as a "kangaroo court" and "bolshevik propaganda" yet are perfectly willing to assume as true the autopsy documents (which are highly politicized and biased) in the Bromberg massacre case. It's very clear that your agenda is to whitewash German crimes while emphasizing Allied ones.

Groscurth · Post by **Groscurth** » 18 Feb 2004 17:38

I have translated a part of beevors book and gave the sources of Beevor to in the history of the lamps made of skin, it is not a " cannard".

I posted it once on NS, I'll copy and paste here:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Red Arrow wrote:

Is it true that they made bars of soap and lampshades outta people etc?

->
-->
--->
---->MY ANSWER ON NS, REGARDING THIS "SKIN STORRY":
Yes, occasionly.

But this was not done with Jewish corpses but with Poles, Russians, Oezbecks. Not because of the better quality of their skin or so.It was done at Danzig at the Anatomic Medical Institute.

From Anthony Beevor's "Berlin, The Downfall 1945", chapter 6 (East and West) in wich he quotes the investigation immediately done at liberation (I try the translation from the Dutch version):

After the taking of Danzig by the Red Army (march), a commission was send to investigate the production of soap and leather "from body of citizens of the USSR and other countries that are killed in German concentration camps"
In 1943, professor Rudolf Spanner and assistent-professor Volman started
with the experiments. Next, they build special productionfacilities.
"Investigations in the A.M.I showed 148 human corpses that were in stock for the production of soap, 126 corpses of males, 18 of women and 4 of children. 80 males and 2 females did not have a head. Also found were 89 human heads" All corpses and heads were stocked in metal barrels with a alcohol-carbol-solution. It seems that most corpses came from the nearby concentrationcamp Stutthof. "The killed peole who's corpses were used to fabric soap had different nationalities, but most were Poles, Russians and Uzbecks".

Regarding the rank of the visitors, the work at the AMI was appearently done with the agreement of the official side. "The AMI was visited by minister of education Bernhard Rust and by Reichsgesundheitsführer Leonardo Conti. Albert Forster the Gauleiter of Danzi visited the institute in 1944, when the soap was already produced. He inspected all divisions of the institute and I think that he was aware that soap of human corpses was produced." The most amazing of this horrible history is that nothing was destroyed at the arrival of the Red Army and that professor Spanner and his assistents after the war never were trialed. The use of human corpses for production purposes was not a crime.

Stutthof counted mostly Sovjet-prissonars and some Poles, soldiers aswel as some Jews. In 6 weeks before the liberation, 16.000 prissonars died of tyfus. when the Red Army approched, prissonars were ordered to destroy the evidences of the camp. The crematorium was blowed up and 10 barraks in wich Jews had stayed, were burned down. Appearently very normal German soldiers also were ordered to help with the executions of POW's of the Red Army and Soviet citizens.

With the text between the "", Beevor quotes in his Bibliography:
-"the boddies of Soviet citizens...", Sjvernik at Molotov, GARF
9401/2/96,p.255-61.
-about Stutthof: RGVA 32904/1/19

So this was occasionly in the history of the camps.
Today those lampshades and soaps still can be found at some musea but most are now in the possesion of some very rich freaky Texan and Israeli collectionars that make big money from it by selling it in their surroundings at the highest bedder. Specially of those Israeli collectionars is this discusting. Money even goes over their own people, bah.

Back to top

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 18 Feb 2004 18:11

Posts on the subject of human soap should be directed to one of these threads listed at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41765

Groscurth · Post by **Groscurth** » 18 Feb 2004 18:21

David Thompson wrote:Posts on the subject of human soap should be directed to one of these threads listed at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41765

Sorry David, just hopped in and because it was about the lamps too, i posted it here.

Cheers,

Sven

Omega-Force · Post by **Omega-Force** » 19 Feb 2004 03:09

John W · Post by **John W** » 19 Feb 2004 03:54

Omega-Force wrote:
See what Allied propaganda can do to innocent Germans?
Innocent?

Are you claiming the entire nation and the peoples were guilty?

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 19 Feb 2004 04:13

panzermahn wrote: David,

don't tell me that you yourself don't believe John Toland, your own American author who won the Pulitzer prize....?

So he should believe Toland solely on the basis of the fact that they're both American? I surely hope that you give Mr. Thompson as well as the rest of us more credit than that.

Whether or not John Toland is an American or not should not have any bearing on his scholarship and research. And one shouldn't either dismiss or agree with a source based on their ethnicity or nationality. Understand, young man, that research and evidence can be manipulated for a variety of reasons but such is not always the case. If a piece is to be dismissed it ought be done on the basis of the quality of its evidence and the research that supports it. If one says " you ought to agree with that because it's written by a jew" I say "bullshit".

Truth is, alas, an elusive commodity and especially in dealing with this historical topic.

Groscurth · Post by **Groscurth** » 19 Feb 2004 10:10

I think that the part in Beevors book and its sources speak for themselves, it was an exception but it did happen.
Spanner and Vollman worked at the anatomical med. institute with those things. Both are of course not guilty of killing anyone but evidence 1 is given by them and the artefacts found at the AMI.

Omega-Force · Post by **Omega-Force** » 19 Feb 2004 23:22

Groscurth · Post by **Groscurth** » 20 Feb 2004 10:39

Groscurth wrote:

to investigate the production of soap and leather "from body of citizens of the USSR and other countries that are killed in German concentration camps"

Well it was not about soap allone in Danzig "the leather" is proving that
the lamp shades are not "a cannard"