Seven years for 'Butcher of Genoa'

[Wilfried Abenaschon]

"It was his job and he did it."

That logic excuses an awful lot. His SD superior Otto Ohlendorf confessed to overseeing the killing of 90,000 people as commander of Einsatzgruppe D. Just doing his job. Dr. Karl Gebhardt cut open the legs of Polish women, inserted dirt and twigs, sewed them back up again, and tested new drugs on them. Just doing his job, though. NKVD men shot several thousand Polish officers in the back of the neck, but hey, they were just doing what they got a paycheck for doing. The men of the Khmer Rouge slaughtered two million people, many of whom were seen as a threat to Pol Pot's Cambodia because they wore eyeglasses and might therefore have been intellectuals. But it was all in a day's work. And white American scientists deliberately gave syphillis to dozens of unwitting black subjects, but all in the interests of science and all a part of their job.

What Engel did looks like murder to me. 59 or more killed in retaliation for 5 is an act worthy of punishment.

~ Mike Miller

Hi,

I don't want to raise a debate, as it is a matter of conviction. My opinion is that his job was to give names of people to execute, as member of the SD or Sipo, and so did he ! THIS WAS HIS JOB ! I'm not saying that as an excuse. The same for any of these men if they did it by order without personal interest.

Everything lies in the hands of the people who give orders, the ones who decide.

NB the case of the researchers is a bit different : was Pr Gebhardt a SS before a physician ? Was it an obligation to make people suffer ? It seems that it wasn't necessery... And he had probably personal motivations.
I don't know the details though, the same for the American scientists. In that case, undoutedly, there is something wrong : it's against the American lows to do that ! (What do you refer to ?) Without hesitation, this is highly criminal.

Willab.

[cptstennes]

One would assume that a sentence of 7 years for a 93 year old is a life sentence. Unless you are very optimistic. Also, he is being examined to see if he can stand imprisonment at his advanced age. The NYT report said that Engel said that he is tough (" hart" I suppose Auf gut Deutsch") and that the Luftwaffe was responsible. So, that was both an arrogant statement and a left handed denial. I am old enough to remember the Eichmann trial on TV. These SS men are "hart wie Kruppstahl" in a way but there is always an attempt to deflect the blow. As an attorney who has defended the indensible, I wanted a defendant to say " I did it. I am glad that I did it and, given the chance, I would do it again." I think that this massacre was not defensible but was understandable as a reprisal. My understanding is that the action was undertaken as a reprisal for the killing of security police in Rome in a similar massacre. At 93 you would think that an SS Sturmbannfuhrer would have a bit more honor than he had shown. I guess that life is worth more than honor. Even at 93. Regards, F.

[Ovidius]

One would assume that a sentence of 7 years for a 93 year old is a life sentence. Unless you are very optimistic.

...................................................................

At 93 you would think that an SS Sturmbannfuhrer would have a bit more honor than he had shown. I guess that life is worth more than honor. Even at 93.

"7 years" or "life" doesn't matter too much for a 93 year old. how long does he expect to live anyway?

But there are also some things to which a man in his place has to think of, regardless of what the court says. Even if he was acquitted or if - by an impossible twist of fate - the affair was prescribed, he still couldn't say it open, at least not while living under his real name. Think a little to realize why

~Regards,

Ovidius

[AndyW]

he doesnt look to happy

Looks like the SS-grandpa changed the NSDAP party emblem on his lapel with a different one...maybe he feels "naked" without wearing some emblems.

At least he doesn't raise his right arm.

Cheers,

[schroedinger]

At least he doesn't raise his right arm.

Cheers,

And he doesn't look much like Peter Sellers.

Strangelove:

No sir... Right arm rolls his wheelchair backwards. Excuse me. Struggles with wayward right arm, ultimately subduing it with a beating from his left.

Also when... when they go down into the mine everyone would still be alive. There would be no shocking memories, and the prevailing emotion will be one of nostalgia for those left behind, combined with a spirit of bold curiosity for the adventure ahead! Ahhhh! Right arm reflexes into Nazi salute. He pulls it back into his lap and beats it again. Gloved hand attempts to strangle him.

http://www.corky.net/scripts/drStrangelove.html

[HaEn]

Someone help me out; I recall that there was a thread quite some time ago, with a picture or a quote from the U.S. forces in Austria in 1945, that read something like:

WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.
EVERY ATTEMPT TO KILL ANY OF OUR SOLDIERS WILL HAVE A REPRISAL OF 20 CIVILLIANS BEING SHOT. signed ??? C.O. of ??? Div. U.S.Army.

So would this be "the likes" of this "butcher"???

Am I the only one who remembers this ?
Regards. HN.

[AndyW]

At least he doesn't raise his right arm.

Cheers,

And he doesn't look much like Peter Sellers.

My favorite movie.

I like that quote very much:

General Jack D. Ripper: "I can not longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist perversion and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Reminds me very much on some "Commie-under-my-Bed" paranoia of some esteemed forum members.

And, as a reminder to all of us:

The President: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

Cheers,

[Dan]

Someone help me out; I recall that there was a thread quite some time ago, with a picture or a quote from the U.S. forces in Austria in 1945, that read something like:

WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.
EVERY ATTEMPT TO KILL ANY OF OUR SOLDIERS WILL HAVE A REPRISAL OF 20 CIVILLIANS BEING SHOT. signed ??? C.O. of ??? Div. U.S.Army.

So would this be "the likes" of this "butcher"???

Am I the only one who remembers this ?
Regards. HN.

I don't remember it. It's not exactly the way we learned it in school. We're the good guys, weren't we

[Xanthro]

Someone help me out; I recall that there was a thread quite some time ago, with a picture or a quote from the U.S. forces in Austria in 1945, that read something like:

WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.
EVERY ATTEMPT TO KILL ANY OF OUR SOLDIERS WILL HAVE A REPRISAL OF 20 CIVILLIANS BEING SHOT. signed ??? C.O. of ??? Div. U.S.Army.

So would this be "the likes" of this "butcher"???

Am I the only one who remembers this ?
Regards. HN.

HaEn,
I sincerely doubt that any such sign would have be approved by policy. Some local commander may have put something up to that effect, but in carrying out such an order would have led to his dismissal and a possible sentence.

American mentality doesn't lend itself well to killing unarmed people. American atrocities tend to be allowing people to strave to death.

Most US soldiers would resist an order to execute civilians, at least European civilians, but would obey an order not to allow food to be given to starving people.

I'm not trying to lessen the impact on US actions after the war, I find the lack of rations given to POWs and the lack of food and basic supplies given to the German populace in the months immediately following their surrender to be inexcusable.

Xanthro

[Scott Smith]

Someone help me out; I recall that there was a thread quite some time ago, with a picture or a quote from the U.S. forces in Austria in 1945, that read something like:

WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.
EVERY ATTEMPT TO KILL ANY OF OUR SOLDIERS WILL HAVE A REPRISAL OF 20 CIVILLIANS BEING SHOT. signed ??? C.O. of ??? Div. U.S.Army.

So would this be "the likes" of this "butcher"???

Am I the only one who remembers this ?
Regards. HN.

HaEn, I think it was Goggi on the old forum that posted something like that in his memoirs about the occupation. I don't remember the exact wording but I can probably find the thread easily enough if you want. Of course, the threats were soon forgotten and not carried out. He said that most G.I.s were pretty friendly, IIRC, especially the Blacks, who knew what it was like to be oppressed. He also said the Quakers did a tremendous effort with relief and kept them from starving. The kids got fed at school and were better off than the adults.

[HaEn]

Someone help me out; I recall that there was a thread quite some time ago, with a picture or a quote from the U.S. forces in Austria in 1945, that read something like:

WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.
EVERY ATTEMPT TO KILL ANY OF OUR SOLDIERS WILL HAVE A REPRISAL OF 20 CIVILLIANS BEING SHOT. signed ??? C.O. of ??? Div. U.S.Army.

So would this be "the likes" of this "butcher"???

Am I the only one who remembers this ?
Regards. HN.

HaEn, I think it was Goggi on the old forum that posted something like that in his memoirs about the occupation. I don't remember the exact wording but I can probably find the thread easily enough if you want. Of course, the threats were soon forgotten and not carried out. He said that most G.I.s were pretty friendly, IIRC, especially the Blacks, who knew what it was like to be oppressed. He also said the Quakers did a tremendous effort with relief and kept them from starving. The kids got fed at school and were better off than the adults.

THANK YOU ! HN

[tonyh]

I think the sign did exist, Haen and Scott. I just visited Germany a Month ago and visited a history museum in Bonn. The was an exhibition about Germany in the years from ´45 to the present day. On of the posters that was presented began with this message, WARNING: WE DID NOT COME AS YOUR LIBERATORS, WE CAME AS YOUR CONQUERORS; WE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.

My friend Alex´s grandmother who translated for the British after the war said that there were statements to this effect issued by the British too, but that in general the British behaved themselves in a very orderly manner.

Also, isn´t there a section in the Hague Convention about the legal shooting of civilians as reprisal actions? I cannot remember.

I also picked up a copy of the GI´s handbook for occupation. Some remarkable propaganda stuff in that too. Including phrases like "Remember All Germans have read Mein Kampf" and "All Germans supported Hitler".

When I get back to Ireland I´ll post some more stuff from it, if anyone´s interested.

Tony

[Siegfried Wilhelm]

I think the crux of the matter here is as Ha En alludes to, did the occupying powers WARN the populance that if there was any killing that reprisals would be taken with hostages and all. A hard-liner attitude and kind of creepy, but if so then the onus fell to the people who killed the German occupying soldiers--they knew what would happen if they did...but chose to do it anyway.
If this was the scenerio then it wasn't murder by the SS officer in charge, but rather the following through of a mandated policy, however unjustly harsh it may have been. It WAS what he was 'paid to do'.
This is not to say I necessarily condone the action, just that I can understand why it happened.

[James]

Regardless of whether or not such threats of reprisals were made by the Americans or any of the other occupiers, there is a world of difference between making a threat in order to deter some unwanted conduct and actually carrying it out. IMHO, the only issue here is whether the execution of innocent civilians ever actually occurred in reprisal for the death of soldiers. It most certainly did during the German occupation of Europe; I am not aware of any instance of it occuring during the Allied occupation of Germany.

[tonyh]

If the allied occupation had been carried out during a wartime situation like the German occupations, ie not in a postwar utterly defeated nation. And also, if there was a significant German resistance or partisan movement like in Russia, then whose to say that the Allied occupation armies would NOT have carried out their threat to shoot civilians. I think if Allied soldiers had been knocked off in the numbers like German occupation troops had been, then there would have been shootings as warnings.

Tony