zyklon-b

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Roberto
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Re: Zyklon-B

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 10:43

Scott Smith wrote:I don't find it convincing because it seems shoehorned to fit the Survivor testimony, which is not quite the vaunted convergence-of-evidence we have come to expect with Holo-stories.
:)
A True Believer's hollow mumblings. Apparently Smith hasn't read the article after all. Otherwise he might have recognized that it demonstrates the corroboration of survivor's testimony by testimony from the perpetrators' side, and of both by documentary evidence.

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Re: Zyklon-B

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 10:44

[Deleted double posting]

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Post by Tarpon27 » 09 Jul 2002 11:58

Scott wrote:
First of all, I have a hard time taking a scientific report couched in the Denier-this/Denier-that rhetoric very seriously--but aside from that, I didn't say it couldn't work.
It is a reply to the various "scientific" reports issued by Deniers, most of which contain some degree of significant error.
But I'm puzzled that the Germans would build these "wire-mesh Zyklon introduction columns" when they were already using a proven technology using gas-recirculation and warming, as below used for fumigating tunnels and the delousing cubicles at Dachau.
Because they were unneeded.

The requirements for pesticide/fumigation of arachnids require extremely high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide with the exposure times lasting for hours in order to kill the pests. These treatments are most effective when the structure and/or contents to be treated when the fumigation procedure allows for heavy constant exposure of high concentrations with some air movement to force the cyanide gas into every nook and cranny in order to complete extermination. If mites and lice survive, say, amongst clothing, their reproductive rates will insure new populations rapidly, so 100% mortality is desired.

None of this is needed on warm blooded humans who can die within a few minutes in exposures that are 1/50th of that required by fumigation.

As I recall, Auschwitz was the second largest customer in purchasing Zyklon, and the reason so much was required was its use for fumigation. The shipping and billing records survived, so we know that literally tons of it went to the camp.

Yet they managed to practice fumigation without building and using your apparatus, unless of course, the sanitation uses of Zyklon at Auschwitz are a myth.

Apparently, the Germans at Auschwitz did not need such apparatus to perform fumigation, and they most assuredly did not need it for killing humans. Building such an apparatus was entirely unnecessary for the purpose of gas chambers, and apparently not required to kill off pests in the camps, either.

Likewise, Degesch's own literature, and they produced Zyklon, has no specific requirements for such an apparatus to be used in fumigation; their general instructions on the Stormfront URL contain no requirements for such an apparatus even in treating bulk commodities such as grains, although they do state it may take 72 hours for it to work (extermination of pests).

Why build an entirely unneeded apparatus when the reality is that a can opener is all that is required for exposing the carrier to the air quite effectively.

Regards,

Mark

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Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Scott Smith » 09 Jul 2002 14:11

Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott wrote:First of all, I have a hard time taking a scientific report couched in the Denier-this/Denier-that rhetoric very seriously--but aside from that, I didn't say it couldn't work.
It is a reply to the various "scientific" reports issued by Deniers, most of which contain some degree of significant error.
Maybe, but that doesn't make Green/McCarthy's partisanship error-free either.
Mark wrote:
Scott wrote:But I'm puzzled that the Germans would build these "wire-mesh Zyklon introduction columns" when they were already using a proven technology using gas-recirculation and warming, as below used for fumigating tunnels and the delousing cubicles at Dachau.
Because they were unneeded.

The requirements for pesticide/fumigation of arachnids require extremely high concentrations of hydrogen cyanide with the exposure times lasting for hours in order to kill the pests. These treatments are most effective when the structure and/or contents to be treated when the fumigation procedure allows for heavy constant exposure of high concentrations with some air movement to force the cyanide gas into every nook and cranny in order to complete extermination. If mites and lice survive, say, amongst clothing, their reproductive rates will insure new populations rapidly, so 100% mortality is desired.

None of this is needed on warm blooded humans who can die within a few minutes in exposures that are 1/50th of that required by fumigation.

As I recall, Auschwitz was the second largest customer in purchasing Zyklon, and the reason so much was required was its use for fumigation. The shipping and billing records survived, so we know that literally tons of it went to the camp.

Yet they managed to practice fumigation without building and using your apparatus, unless of course, the sanitation uses of Zyklon at Auschwitz are a myth.

Apparently, the Germans at Auschwitz did not need such apparatus to perform fumigation, and they most assuredly did not need it for killing humans. Building such an apparatus was entirely unnecessary for the purpose of gas chambers, and apparently not required to kill off pests in the camps, either.

Likewise, Degesch's own literature, and they produced Zyklon, has no specific requirements for such an apparatus to be used in fumigation; their general instructions on the Stormfront URL contain no requirements for such an apparatus even in treating bulk commodities such as grains, although they do state it may take 72 hours for it to work (extermination of pests).

Why build an entirely unneeded apparatus when the reality is that a can opener is all that is required for exposing the carrier to the air quite effectively.
Yes, I know the delousing chambers at Auschwitz were more primitive, and presumably they used more Zyklon than the high-tech ones built at Dachau. But with bugs we don't care how long it takes. With the homicidal chambers we need a rapid increase to lethal levels and then to ventilate. So we need to use a lot of Zyklon and then remove it while it continues to degas. I'm not a chemist but it seems odd to me. You argue that a very small amount was necessary. Maybe so. That would obviate a need for a high-tech arrangement. Neverthless, I think I'll keep an eye on Rudolf's work for the time being.

Of course, all of this still doesn't prove that 500 thousand were killed in a basement. It just shows how Höß could have gassed inmates, and I've never said that this wasn't the case.
:wink:

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Re: Zyklon-B

Post by Scott Smith » 09 Jul 2002 14:12

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I don't find it convincing because it seems shoehorned to fit the Survivor testimony, which is not quite the vaunted convergence-of-evidence we have come to expect with Holo-stories.
:)
A True Believer's hollow mumblings. Apparently Smith hasn't read the article after all. Otherwise he might have recognized that it demonstrates the corroboration of survivor's testimony by testimony from the perpetrators' side, and of both by documentary evidence.
A tautological merry-go-round if you ask me. :aliengray

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 14:54

Scott Smith wrote:Of course, all of this still doesn't prove that 500 thousand were killed in a basement. It just shows how Höß could have gassed inmates, and I've never said that this wasn't the case.
So Smith is disputing not that killings by gassing took place at Auschwitz-Birkenau, but only the extent of the killings.

On what basis, Mr. Smith?

The only technical bottleneck was the cremation capacity. And in Crematorium II, where one of the alleged "mortuaries" was the "basement" that Smith is referring to, that capacity amounted to 1,440 corpses per day, according to a memorandum of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Bauleitung dated 28 June 1943. Let's assume that the actual output was somewhat lower than that, around 800 dead bodies per day as calculated by Jean-Claude Pressac. Crematorium II was in operation from the beginning of April 1943 to the end of October 1944.

How many people could be gassed and cremated in Crematorium II in those 19 months, Mr. Smith?

Whether that many were gassed and cremated depends on the number of people taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau while Crematorium II was on operation and on the number thereof who were dispatched by the other crematoria and the open-air burning pits, of course. But the capacity was certainly there.

Where does this half a million - figure for Crematorium II come from, by the way?

On page 217 of Holocaust Denial, John C.Zimmerman writes:
Since the eight ovens of Krema IV went down soon after they were built, there were 44 ovens which could be used to burn the bodies. In the author's opinion, these ovens probably incinerated about 550,000 bodies or half of the total killed in Auschwitz. The other half were burned in the open air.

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Post by Tarpon27 » 09 Jul 2002 15:16

Scott wrote:
Maybe, but that doesn't make Green/McCarthy's partisanship error-free either.
Nor does publishing a paper refuting the various "scientific" papers of the Deniers make it a peer-reviewed technical abstract submitted for academic and peer review.

I don't say that Green/McCarthy's work is error-free, but they have managed to not make such glaring errors as the calculation of Zyklon B needed for the volume of space required per the ppmv ("parts per million volume") requirements. They also, and correct me if I am wrong, have not footnoted their papers with sources that turn out to be themselves writing under pseudonyms which is, to me at least, a unique form of scholarship regardless of the rationalization for it.
Yes, I know the delousing chambers at Auschwitz were more primitive, and presumably they used more Zyklon than the high-tech ones built at Dachau. But with bugs we don't care how long it takes. With the homicidal chambers we need a rapid increase to lethal levels and then to ventilate. So we need to use a lot of Zyklon and then remove it while it continues to degas. I'm not a chemist but it seems odd to me. You argue that a very small amount was necessary. Maybe so. That would obviate a need for a high-tech arrangement.
You have posted here, and on other threads, your questioning as to why the gas chambers did not use a fairly complicated apparatus, already in existence, for use at Auschwitz.

I answered that such apparatus was unneeded, and completely unneeded for killing humans...in fact, its use is entirely unneeded to kill pests if you read Degesch in fumigating a building.
METHODS:

Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building. The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises. Spaces difficult to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one begins with the top floor, and then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms already charged. Even under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas more than is absolutely necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the building; warning notices must be put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to prevent unauthorised persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to be attacked; for the destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24 hours will suffice, against other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there are any dense stowages or bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be extended to 72 hours.

VENTILATION:

During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time and then to make interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning. Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions, ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before the end of airing. Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON tins and absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the resumption of work.

Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
http://www.stormfront.org/revision/ff5zyklonb.html

Note the directions are for pesticide applicators and fumigators where a level of safety is desired for worker safety; this is fairly basic instructions.

The chambers of the Krema II and III have a volume of 500 cubic meters, and to produce a concentration of 300 ppm, a concentration noted as "rapidly fatal", you need 0.33 grams HCN/cubic meter.

Gassing an empty cubic meter chamber at this level would require:

500 cu meters X 0.33 gr/cu meter = 165 grams

Zyklon's smallest tin was 500 grams.

Filling the chamber wall-to-wall with humans obviously reduces the volume of air space, plus increases the temperature.

If, for example, four 1000 gram tins were inserted in the columns, and using an empty chamber:

4000 grams/500 cu meter = 8 grms/cu meter

That is 24 times the concentration levels needed to kill humans at a "rapidly fatal" rate. Approximately 7200 ppm.

How fast would 4000 grams offgas to kill them?
Inspection of illustration 1 of the Irmscher paper shows that about 10% of the Zyklon evaporates within a period of about 5 to 15 minutes even at the coldest temperatures he studied. Irmscher did his studies at temperatures ranging from -18°C and 15°C. The gas chambers are likely to have been much warmer than the warmest temperature he studied. Human body temperature, for example, is 37°C. Even at the cold temperatures studied by Irmscher, lethal concentrations would have been reached in a few minutes (450-1810 ppmv)!
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... e-science/

I see no need to bring the levels of HCN from Zyklon up so rapidly in order to exterminate victims per this:

Scott wrote:
With the homicidal chambers we need a rapid increase to lethal levels and then to ventilate. So we need to use a lot of Zyklon and then remove it while it continues to degas.
Why do we need such a "rapid increase to lethal levels"?

Frankly, 4 to 8 kilograms of Zyklon is going to kill the victims in 10, 15, perhaps 30 minutes at tops. With the capacity of the chambers at 1000-2000 victims vs. train capacity and offloads, what is this urgency?

Removal of still offgassing Zyklon would be easy. Since the Zyklon is a carrier, there had to be a method of dumping out the spent material, or in the case of the chambers, material still offgassing. If it is placed in a mesh basket dropped into the columns, how hard is it to pull up the basket, dump out the Zyklon...the figures show almost all of the HCN offgases within 2 hours, but say you wanted it pulled at 15 to 20 minutes (victims are dead). Put on a mask, pull it up, and dump it into a container...a paint can w/lid would work perfectly. It could be either disposed of, thrown into various delousing chambers or projects, as I imagine they were always treating some area, or just simply tossed.

Further, your postulate of a "lot of" Zyklon is simply wrong. If a chamber was filled, a single 500 gram tin would kill the occupants within two hours, but that is not what happened. I believe that each column received 1000 to 2000 grams of Zyklon, so 4000 to 8000 grams were used per gassing. If done 7 days a week, once a day at 8000 grams:

8000 grams per day X 365 days per year = 2.9 million grams

2,920 kilograms

Roughly, 3.25 tons of Zyklon per year.

And that is at 48 times the needed concentration to produce "rapidly fatal" ppmv levels.

Regards,

Mark

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Scott Smith » 09 Jul 2002 16:38

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Of course, all of this still doesn't prove that 500 thousand were killed in a basement. It just shows how Höß could have gassed inmates, and I've never said that this wasn't the case.
So Smith is disputing not that killings by gassing took place at Auschwitz-Birkenau, but only the extent of the killings.

On what basis, Mr. Smith?
Smith disputes the "propcess engineering" of gassing 500 thouand in a basement, and he has seen no experimental evidence in support for such an arrangement. Just a lot of post hoc reasoning. It happened don't ask how.
:)

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Scott Smith » 09 Jul 2002 16:47

Mark, you may be right as far as the Zyklon mechanics goes, but even if it could have worked that still doesn't prove that it did work. I remain skeptical that 500 thousand were killed in a basement.
:wink:

Now, you mentioned that Rudolf cites himself under pseudonyms. So what? An author can cite his other works. And if he had to publish under false names that's the way it is. I suppose if he didn't use his previous monikers he would be accused on misciting just the same. I think the danger of academic incest and overuse of authority comes instead from those who are committed to defending the ramparts against those lying Deniers.

I still Deny diesel-murder, btw. And I Deny gas-vans for the time being.

Best Regards,
Scott

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Roberto
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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 17:05

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Of course, all of this still doesn't prove that 500 thousand were killed in a basement. It just shows how Höß could have gassed inmates, and I've never said that this wasn't the case.
So Smith is disputing not that killings by gassing took place at Auschwitz-Birkenau, but only the extent of the killings.

On what basis, Mr. Smith?
Scott Smith wrote:Smith disputes the "propcess engineering" of gassing 500 thouand in a basement, and he has seen no experimental evidence in support for such an arrangement.
"Process engineering" - hollow bunk. Throw a can of your highly lethal standard insecticide down some shafts into a basement full of people. That's all the "process engineering" you need for mass killing.

As to "experimental evidence", it can certainly be arranged. Let's reconstruct one of the Birkenau gas chambers in accordance with the blueprints and eyewitness descriptions, stuff a few hundred "Revisionist" big mouths in there and drop a can of Zyklon B down the shafts. I'd sure love to see what Smith looks like at the end of the procedure.
Scott Smith wrote:Just a lot of post hoc reasoning.
Just a lot of eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence, as a matter of fact.

Care to take another look at some of it, Reverend?

Any idea what the "wire mesh insertion devices" and "wooden covers" mentioned in the inventory of Crematorium II of 31 March 1943 were for?

Or why the Birkenau crematoria had enough cremation capacity to dispose of the camp's entire population at its peak within a month?
Scott Smith wrote:It happened don't ask how.
Ask as much as you like, even though the question is purely academic. But if you don't like answers like those provided by McCarthy and Alstine under

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... o-columns/

don't just mumble that meaningless "I'm not convinced" - stuff. Explain in detail what you think is wrong with their reasoning. Preferably without having to resort to conspiracy theories of evidence manipulation, because any contention depending on such theories carries a distinct smell of fish.

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Scott Smith » 09 Jul 2002 17:19

It's possible to cook burgers on a barbecue grill. I've even done so myself. :mrgreen:

But if a billion are to be served we need some process-engineering to work it out, see.

Btw, the drive-thru window was invented at McDonalds in Arizona at the Ft. Huachuca army base. Why? It turns out that serving everybody on post at lunchtime was a bit of a comedy-of-errors. And there are many such examples from building widgets to cranking out Model T's like hot-rolls.

I haven't seen much of that--process-engineering, I mean.

I have seen a lot of post hoc reasoning to shoehorn all the Survivor, Perpetrator, and Bystander testimony together into one cacophonic coherence of anti-Denial.

But little ol' me is just a skeptic anyway.
:P

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 17:31

Scott Smith wrote:Mark, you may be right as far as the Zyklon mechanics goes, but even if it could have worked that still doesn't prove that it did work. I remain skeptical that 500 thousand were killed in a basement.
Well, the capacity was there, as we have seen. Whether it was really used depends on the number of people who were taken to Auschwitz-Birkenau while Crematorium II was in operation and on the capacity of the camp's other cremation/incineration facilities, as also explained. And then, what the hell does it matter how many of the more than one million victims of Auschwitz-Birkenau perished in any one of its extermination installations?
Scott Smith wrote:Now, you mentioned that Rudolf cites himself under pseudonyms. So what? An author can cite his other works.
Nothing wrong with that as long as he makes clear that he is referring to his own works.

But that's not what Rudolf does.

He creates false "authorities" in order to make believe that there are other "scholars" who support his views.

This becomes particularly bizarre when Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) issues a book with an article by Manfred Köhler (Germar Rudolf), who in a footnote duly thanks Ernst Gauss (Germar Rudolf) for the material made available and makes reference to Germar Rudolf (Germar Rudolf) a few footnotes later. :lol:
Scott Smith wrote:hink the danger of academic incest and overuse of authority comes instead from those who are committed to defending the ramparts against those lying Deniers.
"Overuse of authority" he calls it. How sweet. Why, what the freak does is nothing other than cheating his readers. But then, the eager consumers of "Revisionist" literature don't mind being taken for a ride as long as it serves their cause of "Truth", do they?
Scott Smith wrote:I still Deny diesel-murder, btw.
Big deal, Reverend. Even if you were right about diesel - and I don't think you have even convinced yourself that you are -, this would only mean that the engines in question were gasoline and not diesel engines.
Scott Smith wrote:And I Deny gas-vans for the time being.
On what basis, Reverend? The good old unsubstantiated "forgery" howling to defend your Faith against inconvenient documentary evidence, perhaps?
Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him. Then the time is come in which the Jewish officers to be found in prisoner of war camps under the Geneva Convention find out against our will about their no longer existing kinfolk and that could easily lead to complications.
From SS-Major General Dr. Harald Turner's letter to Wolff of 11 April 1942, as transcribed and translated under
http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420411-turner-wolff/

What was good old Turner talking about, Reverend?

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Re: Höß & Co., Exterminators...

Post by Roberto » 09 Jul 2002 17:37

Scott Smith wrote: I have seen a lot of post hoc reasoning to shoehorn all the Survivor, Perpetrator, and Bystander testimony together into one cacophonic coherence of anti-Denial.
Smith can't explain what's supposed to be wrong with "all the Survivor, Perpetrator, and Bystander testimony". Nor can he explain what's supposed to be wrong with the "post hoc reasoning" he claims to have seen. Which means he hasn't seen anything. With big ideological tomato slices covering his eyes, how could he possibly?
Scott Smith wrote:But little ol' me is just a skeptic anyway.
No, little ol' Smith is just a sorry True Believer, getting sillier by the hour.

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Post by Xanthro » 09 Jul 2002 18:41

My understanding is that after an American gassing the gas is vented to a chimney outside and the interior, and the body is then sprayed with an ammonia solution by masked and gloved technicians. The Sulfuric acid and cyanide salt solution is also cleaned up and disposed of as a hazardous material--which would not be a problem with Zyklon-B.
Depends on the time period and the State in which the execution took place.

When the chambers were first used, nearly all of them vent directly into the rooms. As safety concerns in general rose, some began to be vented outside. Much like the lead concentration safety limit could be 60 before 1980, it's now 10.

Venting HCN from a small chamber into a room, won't kill the people there. Very small levels of HCN can be tolerated for extended periods of time.

More precaution was needed for cleaning up the Sulfuric acid than was needed for protection against HCN.

BTW, a mask won't help you against HCN.

Xanthro

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HCN

Post by Scott Smith » 10 Jul 2002 00:52

Xanthro wrote:More precaution was needed for cleaning up the Sulfuric acid than was needed for protection against HCN.
I don't doubt that.
BTW, a mask won't help you against HCN.
Huh?

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