zyklon-b

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Xanthro
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Post by Xanthro » 10 Jul 2002 01:25

Quote:
BTW, a mask won't help you against HCN.
Huh?
I'm talking about the surgical masks, though even a gas mask only helps at lower concentrations.

Xanthro

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Post by Tarpon27 » 10 Jul 2002 02:07

Xanthro, you are more correct than you think, even with commonly used respirators today.

I use North and 3M Series 6000 Full Face respirators, and 3M PAPR (powered respirators), and if required, SCBA (self-contained breathing apparatus).

Hydrogen cyanide is one of a list of chemical agents that is specifically banned for exposure with chemical cartridges in full face and PAPR respirators, and in my work, I would not attempt to bypass the OSHA regulations based on NIOSH and ACGIH standards.

However, you can buy cartridges that as long as TLV ("threshold limit value") levels is <4.7 ppm C and the IDLH ("immediately dangerous to life or health limit") is <50 ppm, they are safe to use in certain environments. This is a "Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical" canister.

You may also purchase a cartridge developed for "Weapons of Mass Destruction" which at a concentration level of 5.6 gm/m^3 of HCN, which I calculate to be 5,040 ppm, has a "Time to Breakthrough" >45 minutes for hydrogen cyanide.

Now, my local supplier can supply me with all the Tyvek suits, nitrile gloves, glove boxes, P100 Organic Vapor or Organic Acid cartridges I need, but does not stock (as of yet, and hopefully will never have to) Level 3 containment suits or respirator cartridges designed to work in 5000 ppm of hydrogen cyanide. From my own estimate of 99.99% of all those who work in environments requiring respirators, we do not face such deadly atmospheres.

So, Xanthro is right. A standard full face P100 with an Organic Acid cartridge, as an example, is not going to protect you against HCN.

There are some military cartridges, but they have a limited efficacy. All of which is meaningless in the gas chambers of Auschwitz.

Mark

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Post by Scott Smith » 10 Jul 2002 02:19

Tarpon27 wrote:There are some military cartridges, but they have a limited efficacy. All of which is meaningless in the gas chambers of Auschwitz.
Didn't Degesch literature specify that fumigations would be prepared with *masked* technicians in buildings and so on. If not, this might explain a postwar photo I have showing a technician fumigating an airplane with Zyklon-B. He is opening the can with a can-opener and isn't even masked. I presume there is either a warning agent that would help him gauge the concentration, or else it was just a demostration photo. Any thoughts?

Btw, Mark, I've seen some German protective masks with huge, separately slung cannister filters used for fire-fighting and CO protection. This would be quite a mask without contained oxygen. Any modern equivalents?
:)

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Post by Tarpon27 » 10 Jul 2002 02:51

In reference to my posting of an article's URL written by Dr. Richard Green (physical chemist) and Jamie McCarthy:

Earlier Scott wrote:
First of all, I have a hard time taking a scientific report couched in the Denier-this/Denier-that rhetoric very seriously--but aside from that, I didn't say it couldn't work.
Tarpon27 (Mark) replied:
I don't say that Green/McCarthy's work is error-free, but they have managed to not make such glaring errors as the calculation of Zyklon B needed for the volume of space required per the ppmv ("parts per million volume") requirements. They also, and correct me if I am wrong, have not footnoted their papers with sources that turn out to be themselves writing under pseudonyms which is, to me at least, a unique form of scholarship regardless of the rationalization for it.
Scott wrote:
Now, you mentioned that Rudolf cites himself under pseudonyms. So what? An author can cite his other works. And if he had to publish under false names that's the way it is. I suppose if he didn't use his previous monikers he would be accused on misciting just the same. I think the danger of academic incest and overuse of authority comes instead from those who are committed to defending the ramparts against those lying Deniers.

Articles, documents, and submissions made by revisionists today bear the marks of scholarly integrity, with copious footnoting, a trait I am sure they have emulated from the academic world. It is an appeal to authority and to establish credibility.

Likewise, introductions to these works often present the authors as distinguished engineers, scientists, historians, academics, and professionals.

Frankly, there appears to be a disconnect between the hype and the reality. As an example, on a thread some time back on Leuchter and his qualifications, I raised the point that Mark Weber had written that Leuchter had designed and built two gas chambers for American prisons and this appears to be false. I know, for example, that Weber has a graduate degree in history from an accredited university, and his knowledge of WWII Europe is said to be vast; unfortunately, Mr. Leuchter's design of gas chambers is a bit more tenuous.

If indeed Leuchter has never actually built, designed, or consulted on an actual working gas chamber, it certainly does not help his credibility as an expert on such matters.

I understand Rudolph attended the Max Planck Institute, and anyone with a background in science or engineering knows the name and that it is prestigious institution.

However, I find the use of pseudonyms to present academic credibility to articles by using footnotes supposedly of others' work when the reality is, the quoted sources and the original author are one in the same, as being more than a bit disingenuous.

Now, obviously you don't, but if my doctor has a degree from a Caribbean island institution that it turns out he chartered, I don't really believe his credentials.

Rudolph could have published all of his work in the US, and received backing from the IHR and its proponents.

One of the main problems the revisionists have is credibility. In an attempt to bolster it, they tend to over compensate with these amazing portrayals of academic and professional achievement which often appear, to me, to be illusionary at best. It is equivalent to footnoting one's article with source material from other deniers that has not been updated in decades, and is clearly needing some revision. On the topic of this thread, I give calculations of prominent revisionists, one an engineer, who calculates a minimum of 50 kg to achieve LC ("lethal concentration") of HCN in gas chamber volumes of 500 cu m^3, while another claims it would take tons!

Rudolph may be a great physical chemist; he certainly knows more chemistry than I do, but in his using his own pseudonyms' work to bolster his new writing, he appears to be trying legitimize his findings with other independent sources. ..which are actually his own findings. He shrugs this off as saying that the footnotes are to information that is proven fact, but I have problems with that scenario.

To put it bluntly: the revisionists damage themselves with such tactics.

Regards!

Mark

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Post by Tarpon27 » 10 Jul 2002 03:41

Both in METHOD and in the VENTILATION sections of their document, Degesch mentions the use of masks...in application, it is suggested, in ventilation, it is mandatory, along with specific instructions on opening first floor entry door, then nearby windows, no more than 15 minutes inside, etc.
METHODS:

Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building. The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises. Spaces difficult to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one begins with the top floor, and then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms already charged. Even under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas more than is absolutely necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the building; warning notices must be put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to prevent unauthorised persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to be attacked; for the destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24 hours will suffice, against other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there are any dense stowages or bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be extended to 72 hours.

VENTILATION:

During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time and then to make interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning. Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions, ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before the end of airing. Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON tins and absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the resumption of work.

Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication
The fact that Degesch says the gas will start "instantaneously" and to limit one's exposure, even with a mask, during application would give me a bit of a pause.

Upon ventilation, a mask is required.

Of course, you would imagine that especially with the long periods required to fumigate, that at starting the vetilation, the level of concentration was falling through normal air exchange in any building, and older buildings had air exchange rates far, far higher than today's energy efficient structures.

Scott wrote:
Didn't Degesch literature specify that fumigations would be prepared with *masked* technicians in buildings and so on. If not, this might explain a postwar photo I have showing a technician fumigating an airplane with Zyklon-B. He is opening the can with a can-opener and isn't even masked. I presume there is either a warning agent that would help him gauge the concentration, or else it was just a demostration photo. Any thoughts?
Well, from above, even in a large multi-story building, wearing a mask in application is not mandatory.

In an airplane? The largest of the most common German airplanes I would think would be easy to open the can, sprinkle rapidly while backing out of the plane. Obviously, you would need to plan your walk-through, and be very organized to limit exposure, and also be careful on handling and opening the can. You would have several minutes before exposure would be dangerous.

Another consideration: familiarity breeds contempt.

In other words, someone who works with Zyklon intimately may very well respect it, but still play a bit fast with safety rules. I had a Crew Chief that not two days after a 4 day course on safety in dealing with fungal mycotoxin exposure took off his suit in a home he felt was "safe", even after seeing some of the most scary pictures ever of fungal infections, some causing death.

As per warning agents: these olfactory agents are so powerful that small amounts, and I mean incredibly small amounts, can make you think that you are in an area saturated by the chemical. At a natural gas pumping station on the edge of my home town, half the town of 8,000 could smell natural gas from a minute accidental release of the warning flag.

I have an agent called "Last Resort" used for deodorization that you had better like the smell of it because if I use it, it will never come out.

I don't doubt your picture is legitimate.
Btw, Mark, I've seen some German protective masks with huge, separately slung cannister filters used for fire-fighting and CO protection. This would be quite a mask without contained oxygen. Any modern equivalents?
Well, there is plenty of SCBA gear available; firefighters and smoke jumpers are obvious examples.

But some of the new stuff is almost alien...I observed a local attorney's office here that was suspected of receiving some anthrax laden mail. A response team showed up, cordoned off a parking lot, set-up containment, and took seventy people outside where they were subjected to being stripped and given a grueling 45 minute bathing. Now they do set-up portable showers and screens, but for a 45 year old woman, naked in a parking lot, with three people probing her with brushes, it can be a frightening and humiliating experience. Especially since she is staring at three people in huge bulbous day-glo yellow suits, faces covered by masks, and she is getting water squirted on her by all three while being fairly roughly brushed to the point skin is visibly reddened.

It was a real mess, and took hours. The bill was in the thousands of dollars.

You may find this interesting:

http://www.aramsco.com/

The "Domestic Perparedness" Catalog has many tools, supplies, and PPE ("personal protective gear") for HAZMAT work, plus gear for actual military agents...I wear Tri-Tuff suits for a lot of work, about $4 apiece in quantity. A Level A contained suit is $1,100.

:D

If I had to use Zyklon, and there were various levels (C, D, etc.) of potentcy, I'd be wearing a mask, gloves, and skin protection.

Best,

Mark

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Post by tonyh » 10 Jul 2002 19:07

If we read Degesch ´s piece

METHODS:

Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building. The tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will develop evenly and instantaneously throughout the premises. Spaces difficult to reach may be charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one begins with the top floor, and then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms already charged. Even under mask protection it is not advisable to expose oneself to the gas more than is absolutely necessary. The exit door is sealed after everybody has left the building; warning notices must be put up before gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to prevent unauthorised persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to be attacked; for the destruction of the various types of moths and their pre-adult stages 24 hours will suffice, against other kinds of insect pests one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there are any dense stowages or bulkss of commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be extended to 72 hours.

VENTILATION:

During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the building. It is advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time and then to make interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning. Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions, ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be commenced before the end of airing. Windows and doors must remain open, and gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON tins and absorbent material must always be collected and cleared away before the resumption of work.

Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication


........and then read´s this "eyewitness" testimony

From Richard Boch SS Corporal.

The new arrivals had to get undressed. And when a certain number had gone inside, they shut the doors and that happened three times. And everytime Hoblinger had to go out to his ambulance and they took out a sort of tin. One of the SS block Führer's did that. And then he climbed up a ladder and then at the top there was a round hole and he opened a little iron door and held the tin there and shook it and then he shut the little door again. Then a fearful screaming started up. Approximately, I would reckon, after about ten minutes, it slowly went quiet. I said to Hoblinger "Could we get a bit nearer, when they take them out?", so we went a bit closer. They opened the door, that was the prisoner squad who did that, then a blue haze came out. And I looked in and saw a pyamid. They'd all climbed on top of each other. Until the last one stood on the very top. All one on top the other. It was a pointed heap, it all came up to a point. And then the prisoners had to go in and tear it apart. They had to tug and pull very hard to disentangle all these people. Then we went back the hall and now it was the turn of the last lot to get undressed, the ones who'd managed to hang back a bit all the time. Then the prisoners had to check where small children had been hidden and covered up. They pulled them out and opened the doors quickly again and whoosh, they threw all the children in and slammed the doors.

Taken from the BBC series "The World at war". The name of the camp is not given. But the "tin" suggests it's Auzchwitz and Zyklon B.


Then how can one blame anybody for finding the Auschwitz gas chamber operation somewhat dubious whne reading statements like this? Does anyone else find this remotely fishy?

Ten minutes to gas a large number of people?
No gas masks mentioned, for either Boch or anyone else
and "a blue haze" coming out of the opened door, with not a bother on anyone outside.

Tony

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 Jul 2002 19:42

tonyh wrote:Then how can one blame anybody for finding the Auschwitz gas chamber operation somewhat dubious whne reading statements like this? Does anyone else find this remotely fishy?
Why, would inaccuracies in Boch’s description make “the Auschwitz gas chamber operation somewhat dubious”?

Boch is only one of many witnesses, and there is also documentary and physical evidence. So what would it matter if Boch’s account is somewhat less than credible, assuming that it is?
tonyh wrote:Ten minutes to gas a large number of people?
Why not? Besides, time and figures are the issues regarding which human observation is most fallible. I wouldn’t string the witness up on that.
tonyh wrote:No gas masks mentioned, for either Boch or anyone else.
Neither did he say that no one wore gas masks, which may be related to it being such a standard procedure that he didn’t consider it worth mentioning.
tonyh wrote:and "a blue haze" coming out of the opened door, with not a bother on anyone outside.
The only statement that makes it seem dubious whether Boch really witnessed what he described, assuming his not mentioning gas masks is to be understood as a statement that there were none.
But then, Boch is just one of many witnesses, some of them survivors, others perpetrators, still others bystanders. The accounts of some are more detailed, the accounts of others less so. Some are also more credible than others. But there’s a common thread running through all the depositions, even though they were made independently and without knowledge of each other. And they are furthermore corroborated by documentary and physical evidence.

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Post by Xanthro » 10 Jul 2002 20:14

Then how can one blame anybody for finding the Auschwitz gas chamber operation somewhat dubious whne reading statements like this? Does anyone else find this remotely fishy?

Ten minutes to gas a large number of people?
No gas masks mentioned, for either Boch or anyone else
and "a blue haze" coming out of the opened door, with not a bother on anyone outside.
How does this differ than any other eyewitness testimony to any other event? It doesn't, yet people Holocaust deniers try to hold everything about the Holocaust to a different standard, while claiming they are only being skeptical.

There is nothing remotely "fishy" about the testimony.

For the time line, it's his recollection on it being 10 minutes, which would be more than enough time for a medium level of HCN to kill everyone.

Nobody would need gas mask since the chamber has been ventilated. Even when gas masks were part of the SOP, it wasn't because of the lethal agent HCN, but because Zyklon-B carried a warning cough irritante, much like natural gass carries a warning smell.

Later in the war, this cough irritante was removed, so there was no need for a gas mask, which doesn't protect you from HCN anyway.

A blue haze coming out of the room. This could simply be he just saw the slaughter of many people, and unaccostomed to seeing piles of naked bodies, thought he saw a blue haze. Or, the HCN combined with the sweat, breath, and urine of a number of dying people caused a rize in humidity and this reacted with the HCN to cause the formation of low level of Prussian Blue that was suspended in the room.

Since the people "outside" were Jews who were going to be killed later anyway, I doubt anyone much cared they may have be overly exposed to potential lethal levels of HCN. Afterall, they are destined to go into that chamber sooner or later.

Xanthro

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Post by Tarpon27 » 11 Jul 2002 00:42

I think you need to consider why Degesch mentions gas masks as mandatory during the VENTILATION phase (after gassing operations) are completed as compared to during the METHODS (initial application of the agent) in the quoted literature.

Initially, an applicator is breathing ambient air in the structure that is not contaminated with the agent. You would walk the layout of the structure prior to beginning application, noting halls, rooms, problem areas (closets, alcoves, cabinets), layout of furniture, the traffic areas, etc. You would place the tins (at least I would) on each floor as you would need them. You would have made sure all windows were tightly closed, perhaps even sealing, and you would note how air flow behaves in the areas from the building breathing (outside air exchange) or if there was a forced air HVAC system (doubtful in those years).

You would then start at the top floor, as far from your egress point as possible. Opening the first can, you would distribute the contents evenly and rapidly, and quickly move through your pre-planned route.

Frankly, I consider this to be fairly dangerous, but that is my opinion based on my experience.

After the time requirement, probably a minimum of 24 hours, you now have to reventilate the building. As Degesch writes, your approach is the opposite: you begin at the egress door, opening it first, then proceed to open windows, never staying more than 15 minutes inside the structure and waiting up to a half hour between re-entering. Both to prevent over exposure even with a mask and build-up upon skin. As soon as you open that door, you stand a very good chance of taking a face full of gas from negative pressure or air movement. (Obviously, the best scenario is a brisk wind behind you and the entry door, with windows to open on opposite sides for excellent cross ventilation, but they don't always work that way.)

HCN is not a delayed reactor, although those working low concentrations for years may develop some problems like skin irritation, headaches, etc.

As you work on ventilating a building, you are moving through an atmosphere that has had a concentration of HCN of ~7500 to 15000 ppmv, using large amounts of Zyklon over 24 hours and up to 72 hours for silos or warehouses containing grains, bulk fibers, etc.

You are attempting to open up all the windows to create rapid air exchange and ventilate the building while minimizing your time inside the building...it is why it is not done alone, so that others outside may mount a rescue if a worker collapses inside while attempting to open windows.

The difference between this and and ventilating a chamber of the size of Krema II and III is substantial. In the Kremas, you have a smaller size and volume, there was forced air ventilation, the Zyklon could be removed from the columns and dumped completely outside of the gassed structure, the concentration of HCN was far lower, and the total time the Zylon was needed to work was measured in minutes, not hours.

Also, in regards to the bluish haze color: HCN as a gas is colorless. Whatever they saw was not HCN.



Regards,

Mark[/quote]

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Post by Hans » 12 Jul 2002 23:45

tonyh wrote:
........and then read´s this "eyewitness" testimony

From Richard Boch SS Corporal.

The new arrivals had to get undressed. And when a certain number had gone inside, they shut the doors and that happened three times. And everytime Hoblinger had to go out to his ambulance and they took out a sort of tin. One of the SS block Führer's did that. And then he climbed up a ladder and then at the top there was a round hole and he opened a little iron door and held the tin there and shook it and then he shut the little door again. Then a fearful screaming started up. Approximately, I would reckon, after about ten minutes, it slowly went quiet. I said to Hoblinger "Could we get a bit nearer, when they take them out?", so we went a bit closer. They opened the door, that was the prisoner squad who did that, then a blue haze came out. And I looked in and saw a pyamid. They'd all climbed on top of each other. Until the last one stood on the very top. All one on top the other. It was a pointed heap, it all came up to a point. And then the prisoners had to go in and tear it apart. They had to tug and pull very hard to disentangle all these people. Then we went back the hall and now it was the turn of the last lot to get undressed, the ones who'd managed to hang back a bit all the time. Then the prisoners had to check where small children had been hidden and covered up. They pulled them out and opened the doors quickly again and whoosh, they threw all the children in and slammed the doors.

Taken from the BBC series "The World at war". The name of the camp is not given. But the "tin" suggests it's Auzchwitz and Zyklon B.
Tony, did Böck say the above in an interview for the BBC (when?) or was it quoted from another source, his testimony at the Auschwitz trial for instance?

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Post by tonyh » 13 Jul 2002 02:25

Hi Hans.

I wrote the account down word for word from the BBC series "World at war". I guess the interview was done from 1970 to 73. Or thereabouts.

Tony

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Post by Sailor » 26 Jul 2002 17:19

Says Tarpon:
Oh, I see. The "simple SS man" is quite capable of calculating the amount of Zyklon required to kill lice but not humans?
There were definite instructions issued on how to determine the amount of Zyklon B required for fumigation :

Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation), Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War Crimes, issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague.

Where are similar instructions with the information that it takes only a fraction of the amount of Zyklon B to kill people?
The SS man certainly could experiment a little. If he did, chances are that he would have probably used more Zyklon B for killing people than for killing lice IMO. ("People are so much larger than lice").

Says Tarpon:
Finally, after thirty or so minutes of offgassing, and in using a concentration of 900 ppm, the chambers have a volume of ~500 cubic meters, and a ventilation system capable of ~8000 cu meters/hr, or the ability to exchange air at approximately 16 air exchanges per hour.
A more realistic and pratical HCN amount would be to use 3000 ppm. This is the amount used in the US for execution gassings, and the usual execution time there was normally about 10 minutes, similar to the alleged gassing times in Auschwitz. The 900 ppm value is a theoretical minimum value.

The capacity of the ventilation system in morgue 1 in Krema II was 4800 cubic meter/hr for the exhaust.system, according to billing documentations from the Topf Company, who designed and built the Crematoria. ( The 8000 cu meter/hr capacity stems from pharmacist Pressac, without any indication of the source for this).

The volume of morgue 1 was 504 cu meter which gives (4 800/504 =) appr. 9.5 air exchanges per hour.. According to the engineering and construction handbook for crematoria by Heepkes "Die Leichen-Verbrennungs Anstalten" the recommended ventilation of morgues at that time was between 6 and 10 air exchanges per hour, depending on the frequency of use. It appears to me that the ventilation system of morgue 1 with 9.5 was correctly dimensioned for the application.

In contrast to morgues the required capacity of the exhaust system for the fumigation buildings was 70 (!!) air exchanges per hour (Peters/Wüstiger "Sachentlausung in Blausäure Kammern"). It seems that HCN gas has a strong affinity, or adhesion, to walls, clothes etc. and the degassing requires a much stronger exhaustion.


Rudolf also calculated the required amount of Zyklon B for the alleged homicides of thousands of people inside morgue 1 in Krema II or III. He assumed for his calculation, based on US execution gassings, 3000ppm HCN and 10 minutes killing time for the victim in the corner furthest away from the inlet chute. He arrived at a massive induction of 20 kg Zyklon B per application in order to achieve this, similar to the amount required for fumigating lice. http://vho.org/D/rga2/

Too bad that he used on some of his papers different pen names, made reference to his own writings as if written by someone else and also included the sources for his information in footnotes. So his findings have to be considered questionable! :roll:

It is interesting to observe how this man for expressing his critical opinion on matters Holocaust publicly is persecuted, his academic career destroyed, had to flee his home country in a hurry or face being placed into the slammer after publishing his report! We had a similar situation in Nazi-Germany. And I think also in countries under communist dictatorship it is/was not very healthy to express publicly criticism of the system.

The man for sticking to his beliefs sacrifices everything he had. To be honest: I myself would not have had the guts to do so!

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Post by Hans » 26 Jul 2002 18:50

Tarpon27 wrote:Also, in regards to the bluish haze color: HCN as a gas is colorless. Whatever they saw was not HCN.

Hi Mark!

I would like to call your attention to this "revisionist" website:

Code: Select all

SPECIFICATIONS FOR HCN 
Name HCN, hydrocyanic acid; prussic acid 

[...]

Color  slightly bluish 

[...]
 
Source: Hydrogen Cyanide, Dupont Publication 7-83. 

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Post by Xanthro » 26 Jul 2002 18:55

The SS man certainly could experiment a little. If he did, chances are that he would have probably used more Zyklon B for killing people than for killing lice IMO. ("People are so much larger than lice").
Only if the SS man were an uneducated fool, because anyone who works with HCN knows that its affects are determined by the basal metabolic rate of the intended target. Thus, warm blooded creatures are far easier to kill the cold blooded vermin. Don't apply you lack of knowledge to those who worked with the chemicals.
A more realistic and pratical HCN amount would be to use 3000 ppm. This is the amount used in the US for execution gassings, and the usual execution time there was normally about 10 minutes, similar to the alleged gassing times in Auschwitz. The 900 ppm value is a theoretical minimum value.
A complete misunderstanding or a deliberate falsification of how both HCN and use gas chambers work.

A 3000 ppm is considered a one breath death. That is, only one breath is needed for the body to absorb a leathal amount of HCN. While it is true that it will still take a minute or two for the person's heart to stop beating, no further intact of HCN is required. This is considered a fast and efficient method of execution.

Plus, a person isn't declared dead until the heart has not beaten for a number of minutes, this varies by State, but is usually around 5 minutes. So saying it took 10 minutes for the person to die is incorrect, it takes 10 minutes for the person to be legally considered executed, and it's quite often less time than that, since at 3000ppm death is very quick.

In contrast, the homocidal chambers required 15 minutes of more before no sound or movement was heard. That is a HUGE difference.

BTW, 900 ppm would kill you quickly too. 300ppm would kill you within half and hour.
It seems that HCN gas has a strong affinity, or adhesion, to walls, clothes etc. and the degassing requires a much stronger exhaustion.
Do you just make stuff up? First, there is no strong adhesion to walls, and the people killed were naked.

Rudolf lost his job not because he wrote under different names, and not even because he wrote about holocaust denial, but because his work was sloppy and full of errors.

It's a deliberate distortion of facts that anyone who knows basic chemistry can spot.

Xanthro

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 26 Jul 2002 19:03

Sailor wrote:Says Tarpon:
Oh, I see. The "simple SS man" is quite capable of calculating the amount of Zyklon required to kill lice but not humans?
There were definite instructions issued on how to determine the amount of Zyklon B required for fumigation :

Directives for the Use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon) for the Destruction of Vermin (Disinfestation), Document No. NI-9912 Office of Chief Counsel of War Crimes, issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in Prague.

Where are similar instructions with the information that it takes only a fraction of the amount of Zyklon B to kill people?
The SS man certainly could experiment a little. If he did, chances are that he would have probably used more Zyklon B for killing people than for killing lice IMO. ("People are so much larger than lice").

Says Tarpon:
Finally, after thirty or so minutes of offgassing, and in using a concentration of 900 ppm, the chambers have a volume of ~500 cubic meters, and a ventilation system capable of ~8000 cu meters/hr, or the ability to exchange air at approximately 16 air exchanges per hour.
A more realistic and pratical HCN amount would be to use 3000 ppm. This is the amount used in the US for execution gassings, and the usual execution time there was normally about 10 minutes, similar to the alleged gassing times in Auschwitz. The 900 ppm value is a theoretical minimum value.

The capacity of the ventilation system in morgue 1 in Krema II was 4800 cubic meter/hr for the exhaust.system, according to billing documentations from the Topf Company, who designed and built the Crematoria. ( The 8000 cu meter/hr capacity stems from pharmacist Pressac, without any indication of the source for this).

The volume of morgue 1 was 504 cu meter which gives (4 800/504 =) appr. 9.5 air exchanges per hour.. According to the engineering and construction handbook for crematoria by Heepkes "Die Leichen-Verbrennungs Anstalten" the recommended ventilation of morgues at that time was between 6 and 10 air exchanges per hour, depending on the frequency of use. It appears to me that the ventilation system of morgue 1 with 9.5 was correctly dimensioned for the application.

In contrast to morgues the required capacity of the exhaust system for the fumigation buildings was 70 (!!) air exchanges per hour (Peters/Wüstiger "Sachentlausung in Blausäure Kammern"). It seems that HCN gas has a strong affinity, or adhesion, to walls, clothes etc. and the degassing requires a much stronger exhaustion.


Rudolf also calculated the required amount of Zyklon B for the alleged homicides of thousands of people inside morgue 1 in Krema II or III. He assumed for his calculation, based on US execution gassings, 3000ppm HCN and 10 minutes killing time for the victim in the corner furthest away from the inlet chute. He arrived at a massive induction of 20 kg Zyklon B per application in order to achieve this, similar to the amount required for fumigating lice. http://vho.org/D/rga2/
Ach nein, wieder der Rudolf mit seinen bescheuerten Berechnungen.

Maybe he should have read the following:
I. Properties of prussic acid (hydrocyanic acid)
Prussic acid is a gas which is generated by evaporation
Boiling point: 25 degree centigrade [correct transcription of German original accordingly]
Freezing point: - 15 degrees centigrade
Specific gravity: 0.69 [correct transcription of German original accordingly]
Steam density: 0.97 (Air = 1.0)
The liquid evaporates easily.
Liquid: transparent, colourless.
Smell: Peculiar, repulsively sweet
Toxic effects on warm-blooded animals
Since prussic acid has practically no indicative irritant effect, it is highly toxic and very dangerous. Prussic acid is one of the most powerful poisons. 1 mg per kg of body weight is sufficient to kill a human being. Women and children are generally more susceptible than men. Very small amounts of prussic acid do not harm the human body, even if breathed continuously. Birds and fishes are particularly susceptible to prussic acid.
Source:

Translation of DOC. NO. NI-9912
Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes

DIRECTIVES FOR THE USE OF PRUSSIC ACID (ZYKLON)
FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF VERMIN (DISINFESTATION)

I found it on Carlos Porter's website and transcribed the whole of it in my post of 2/19/01 1:13:59 pm on the thread

Declaration of War II
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 61&stop=67

of the old forum.
1 mg per kg of body weight is sufficient to kill a human being. Women and children are generally more susceptible than men.
How about that, Mr. Rudolf?

Rudolf's calculations that so impress fellow True Believers, also those regarding the ventilation capacity of the devices installed in the Birkenau crematoria, have been addressed in detail by a fellow chemist, Dr. Richard Green (a filthy Jew of the kind that Sailor hates the guts of), last in an expert report his submitted to the Court of Appeal at the Irving-Lipstadt trial in response to an affidavit by Rudolf that Irving presented as evidence. This expert report can be read under the following link:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/

Particularly interesting is Irving's reaction to reading this expert report, which the Court of Appeal referred to as follows:
We also mention at this point that there were before the Court two applications to call fresh evidence in support of the application. The first, made well before the hearing, was to call evidence from Mr Germar Scheerer (born Rudolf), who holds a diploma in chemistry, and Mrs Zoe Polanska-Palmer, who was detained in Birkenau Camp. The respondents had prepared voluminous evidence in reply. In the event, that application to call fresh evidence was not pursued. We express our dismay at this combination of events; the preparation of very detailed evidence (exposing the respondents to great expense in preparing a reply and the members of the Court to considerable pre-hearing reading) and the withdrawal of the application.
Source of quote: As above.

In other words, Irving was so sure of the probative value of Rudolf's affidavit that he withdrew it as evidence upon reading the dissection of it by Dr. Green. A wise move that "Revisionists" should thank him for, otherwise they would have seen their touted trump card pronounced by a court to be the nonsense that it is.
Sailor wrote:Too bad that he used on some of his papers different pen names, made reference to his own writings as if written by someone else and also included the sources for his information in footnotes. So his findings have to be considered questionable!
As damaging as the intellectual dishonesty of creating fake authorities to support his arguments is to Rudolf's credibility, the contents of his pseudo-scientific nonsense and his motivations for producing it speak far more strongly against the fellow.
Sailor wrote:It is interesting to observe how this man for expressing his critical opinion on matters Holocaust publicly is persecuted, his academic career destroyed, had to flee his home country in a hurry or face being placed into the slammer after publishing his report! We had a similar situation in Nazi-Germany. And I think also in countries under communist dictatorship it is/was not very healthy to express publicly criticism of the system.
However wrong and counterproductive I consider hate speech legislation to be, I'm not exactly moved to tears by the plight of Mr. Rudolf. He has been criminally prosecuted not for "expressing his critical opinion on matters Holocaust" or criticising the "system" (a term ironically used by Nazis in the 1930s to refer to the Weimar Republic!), but for systematically producing lies in support of an agenda of hate speech. As his nemesis Dr. Green put it in his online article The Chemistry of Auschwitz:
Whereas I am opposed to censorship and hate speech laws, I am not embarrassed to call Holocaust-denial hate speech. That is what it is. People who are smart enough to obfuscate using pseudoscientific arguments are also smart enough to know what they are doing: propagating a lie. Although some people may be attracted to Holocaust denial because of gullibility and/or mental illness, these people are not the same people who write these clever but mendacious pseudoscientific reports. The people who write these reports are motivated by a desire to rehabilitate Nazism, an ideology of hate. Hate-speech is what it is, and in calling it that I am merely exercising my right of free speech.


Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/
Sailor wrote:The man for sticking to his beliefs sacrifices everything he had. To be honest: I myself would not have had the guts to do so!
That sounds sweet, but Rudolf's perceived "courage" in suffering "persecution" on account of his propaganda doesn't change the fact that his beliefs are worth as much as the lies he uses to propagate them.

A critic of German hate speech laws, German politologist Anja Weusthoff, accurately characterized the Rudolf type as follows:
Jene, die wider besseres Wissen den nationalsozialistischen Massenmord an den Juden anzweifeln, werden sich, um ihre Behauptungen agitatorisch zu nutzen, als "Märtyrer" unter einer eigens für sie geschaffenen "Sondergesetzgebung" gefallen.
Source of quote:

Anja Weusthoff, "Endlich geregelt? - Zur Ahndung der Holocaust-Leugnung durch die deutsche Justiz", in: Die Auschwitzleugner, edited by Brigitte Bailer-Galanda, Wolfgang Benz and Wolfgang Neugebauer, Berlin 1996, pages 252 to 272.

My translation:
Those who against better knowledge question the National Socialist mass murder of the Jews will, in order to use their contentions for agitation, like to see themselves as "martyrs" under a "special legislation" created specifically for them.
Regarding the suckers who eagerly swallow whatever Rudolf et al produce, the lady quotes the follwing statement of a German legal scholar by the name of Baumann:
Allgemein bekannte geschichtliche Tatsachen zu leugnen kann keine Strafe verdienen. Wer etwa behauptet, Deutschland habe am 1. Weltkrieg nicht teilgenommen, oder Adenauer habe 333 bei Issus mitgewirkt, ist durch seine Dummheit genug bestraft. Gleiches muss für die Leugnung der Scheusslichkeiten und Verbrechen der jüngsten deutschen Vergangenheit gelten.
My translation:
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.

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