zyklon-b

[Sailor]

Says tonyh:

>>Maybe you don't understand what the Sonderkomando were. They were Jewish prisoners who would eventually be gassed or killed in some manner, then is little to no need to protect them from residual HCN.<<

I know exactly what the Sonderkomando was and what their usual ethnic orientation was. However, I simply do not buy the assertion that the SS would send them into a gas chamber without some form of protection, regardless of how they "felt" about them. It makes no sense at all. If something, ie the Sonderkomando, is an integral part of an operation, ie gassing, then there is no point in having that integral part of your operation dying in mid operation, thus severely holding up the entire operation and limiting the amount of Jews etc gassed. Remember, this was supposedly a 24 hr industrial operation.

Tony

Also please note:

The thesis of the worthlessness of the inmates is not believable considering the expenses and efforts of the SS especially in the area to prevent epedemics and of healthcare.

Even if the lifes of the inmates were of little value in the eyes of the SS, they would be careful to loose the carriers of these ‘secrets’ and then have to make more and more people familiar with the ‘murder secrets’ in order to do the work.

Additionally many survivors of the Sonderkommano were working for years, 2-3 years doing this work in the alleged gas chambers without ill effect.

There are no witnesses who testified that members of the “Sonderkommandos” were gas poisoned during work in the alleged gas chambers.

Hi, Roberto!

[Sailor]

Xanthro

You get condemnation because you post drivel like this. Both Leuchter and Rudolf show traces of HCN, which shouldn't be there.

Why not, friend? They fumigated with Zyklon B/HCN all kinds of things: ships, trains, barracks, airplanes, churches, yes and morgues, especially morgues since they were more than others exposed to the typhus carrier, or not? Many died from spotted fever and typhus and the bodies were subsequently stored in morgue 1 until they were cremated.

Where is the problem? And why do you get so excited? Relax man, have a drink and simmer down, Xanthro.

[Roberto]

Says tonyh:

>>Maybe you don't understand what the Sonderkomando were. They were Jewish prisoners who would eventually be gassed or killed in some manner, then is little to no need to protect them from residual HCN.<<

I know exactly what the Sonderkomando was and what their usual ethnic orientation was. However, I simply do not buy the assertion that the SS would send them into a gas chamber without some form of protection, regardless of how they "felt" about them. It makes no sense at all. If something, ie the Sonderkomando, is an integral part of an operation, ie gassing, then there is no point in having that integral part of your operation dying in mid operation, thus severely holding up the entire operation and limiting the amount of Jews etc gassed. Remember, this was supposedly a 24 hr industrial operation.

Tony

Also please note:

The thesis of the worthlessness of the inmates is not believable considering the expenses and efforts of the SS especially in the area to prevent epedemics and of healthcare.

Now that's sharp reasoning. Measures to prevent epidemics were aimed at keeping up the functioning of the camp, which would have been seriously upset by major outbreaks of contagious diseases (which moreover would also affect the guard personnel). It doesn't mean that the inmates had any worth in the eyes of their captors.

What "efforts of the SS especially in the area to prevent epedemics and of healthcare" is Sailor talking about, by the way?

Even if the lifes of the inmates were of little value in the eyes of the SS, they would be careful to loose the carriers of these ‘secrets’ and then have to make more and more people familiar with the ‘murder secrets’ in order to do the work.

Certainly so. But there was no risk of losing them due to exposure to the residual amounts of HCN left after gassing and ventilation, was there? In the DIRECTIVES FOR THE USE OF PRUSSIC ACID (ZYKLON)
FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF VERMIN (DISINFESTATION) featured on Porter's web site the following is written:

Since prussic acid has practically no indicative irritant effect, it is highly toxic and very dangerous. Prussic acid is one of the most powerful poisons. 1 mg per kg of body weight is sufficient to kill a human being. Women and children are generally more susceptible than men. Very small amounts of prussic acid do not harm the human body, even if breathed continuously.

Emphasis is mine.

Additionally many survivors of the Sonderkommano were working for years, 2-3 years doing this work in the alleged gas chambers without ill effect.

Which would suggest that absorption by the victims and subsequent ventilation were so effective that the Sonderkommando were never exposed to more than the "very small amounts" mentioned in the above quoted directives.

There are no witnesses who testified that members of the “Sonderkommandos” were gas poisoned during work in the alleged gas chambers.

Which would suggest ... (see above).

Now an easy little question for Mr. Sailor:

In his diary submitted as evidence at the trial before the Landgericht Münster that ended with the court's verdict of 29.11.1960, SS physician Dr. Johann Paul Kremer wrote the following:

2.Septb. 1942.
Zum 1. Male um 3 Uhr früh bei einer Sonderaktion zugegen. Im Vergleich hierzu erscheint mir das Dante'sche Inferno fast wie eine Komödie. Umsonst wird Auschwitz nicht das Lager der Vernichtung genannt!

Source of quote:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Excerpts/Kremer003.htm

My translation:

2 September 1942.
For the first time at three o'clock in the morning I was present at a special action. Compared thereto Dante's Inferno seemed almost like a comedy to me. They don't call Auschwitz the camp of annihilation for nothing!

What was this "special action", so much worse than Dante's Inferno, that Kremer was talking about?

[Roberto]

Why not, friend? They fumigated with Zyklon B/HCN all kinds of things: ships, trains, barracks, airplanes, churches, yes and morgues, especially morgues since they were more than others exposed to the typhus carrier, or not?

Now that's interesting. Let's see some evidence to fumigation of morgues with Zyklon B i) at Birkenau and ii) at places other than Birkenau.

Lice only remain with a human body as long as it is warm, IIRC. This means that a place full of stiffs would be of no interest to lice and thus have less of them than any other, probably none at all.

[Scott Smith]

Why not, friend? They fumigated with Zyklon B/HCN all kinds of things: ships, trains, barracks, airplanes, churches, yes and morgues, especially morgues since they were more than others exposed to the typhus carrier, or not?

Now that's interesting. Let's see some evidence to fumigation of morgues with Zyklon B i) at Birkenau and ii) at places other than Birkenau.

Lice only remain with a human body as long as it is warm, IIRC. This means that a place full of stiffs would be of no interest to lice and thus have less of them than any other, probably none at all.

That makes no sense at all. I don't know if HCN kills germs or not, but hot air and steam and microwaves do; however, all delousing methods certainly do kill the vector for the typhus disease, which is body-lice. And the dead/diseased bodies are infested with it. They cannot be burned immediately and have to be handled by somebody. The lice will try to find living hosts as long as they remain alive but don't pack up and go fishing either. So, what other vectors are there? Well, there are the Sonderkommando and perhaps the SS overseers themselves who could become ridden from all these corpses in proximity. Perhaps we don't care about their health but we don't want disease spreading beyond the Kremas where we are trying to contain and destroy it. Furthermore, with corpses there is the possiblility of trench rats or any other kind of vermin.

It seems to me that a fumigation every so often of the morgue, with or without bodies, would be prudent and normal. Why not?

Perhaps the Believer has some evidence that morgues are never fumigated? Never cleaned, never hosed down, never sprayed with bleach, or whatever...

[Scott Smith]

Like others of your ilk, the only thing critical about you is how you view holocaust evidence that shows Jews were killed. No amount of such evidence will ever suffice, and the weakest and mose easily refuted evidence is accepted at face value by you as long as it supports the opposite.

Unless I missed something, Sailor never said that no Jews were killed. His critical-thinking is not suspect; indeed, for both Jews and Gentiles it would be important to truly know what the basis for such sweeping atrocity stories is. The stronger and more important the claim/accusation the more foundation needed for it. The Revisionists are not to be blamed if the Greuelpropagandists failed in their homework.

[Roberto]

Why not, friend? They fumigated with Zyklon B/HCN all kinds of things: ships, trains, barracks, airplanes, churches, yes and morgues, especially morgues since they were more than others exposed to the typhus carrier, or not?

Now that's interesting. Let's see some evidence to fumigation of morgues with Zyklon B i) at Birkenau and ii) at places other than Birkenau.

Lice only remain with a human body as long as it is warm, IIRC. This means that a place full of stiffs would be of no interest to lice and thus have less of them than any other, probably none at all.

That makes no sense at all.

Like most of my statements, it makes more sense than what the Reverend usually produces.

I don't know if HCN kills germs or not,

It doesn't. Read the directives.

but hot air and steam and microwaves do; however, all delousing methods certainly do kill the vector for the typhus disease, which is body-lice. And the dead/diseased bodies are infested with it.

Assuming they died of typhus, that is. Which due to extensive fumigation campaigns throughout the camp seems to have been the exception rather than the rule among the permanent inmates of Auschwitz. At least that's what becomes apparent from the death books.

They cannot be burned immediately and have to be handled by somebody. The lice will try to find living hosts as long as they remain alive but don't pack up and go fishing either. So, what other vectors are there? Well, there are the Sonderkommando and perhaps the SS overseers themselves who could become ridden from all these corpses in proximity. Perhaps we don't care about their health but we don't want disease spreading beyond the Kremas where we are trying to contain and destroy it.

Then have them take a shower while their clothes are disinfested in the delousing room. No need to cyclon the bloody morgue.

Furthermore, with corpses there is the possiblility of trench rats or any other kind of vermin.

Spend huge amounts of those nice blue crystals on possible "trench rats and other kind of vermin" in a morgue? What a waste of good Zyklon!

It seems to me that a fumigation every so often of the morgue, with or without bodies, would be prudent and normal. Why not?

Because it's the place where and from where disease-carrying vermin is least likely to spread, limited as the number of people in touch with it are to a few Sonderkommando and SS overseers who can be submitted to standard hygiene measures in the installations build for that purpose.

Perhaps the Believer has some evidence that morgues are never fumigated?

The Believer is the fellow who is asking me to prove a negative, I would say. A rather lame attempt to cover up his inability to provide any evidence in support of his nonsense.

[Roberto]

Like others of your ilk, the only thing critical about you is how you view holocaust evidence that shows Jews were killed. No amount of such evidence will ever suffice, and the weakest and mose easily refuted evidence is accepted at face value by you as long as it supports the opposite.

Unless, I missed something, Sailor never said that no Jews were killed.

Why, the Reverend is lashing out on behalf of a fellow True Believer. And he purposefully misses Xanthro's point by miles.

His critical thinking is not suspect;

His thinking is everything but critical, I would say.

indeed, for both Jews and Gentiles it would be important to truly know what the basis for such sweeping atrocity stories is.

Whoever cares to truly know has the findings of criminal justice and historiography at his disposal. Both have long concluded that what True Believers call "sweeping atrocity stories" are actually facts proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

The "Jews and Gentiles" - stuff is quite enjoyable, by the way. It illustrates the categories in which the Reverend thinks. A candidate for my list of Smithsonian quotes.

The stronger and more important the claim/accusation the more foundation needed for it.

Cream cheese. The foundation required for what Smith calls "claims" and "accusations" is the one required by criminal justice and historiography for any crime and historical event - physical and/or documentary and/or eyewitness evidence. And that foundation has long been provided, to an extent that exceeds the foundation regarding many other historical events.

The Revisionists are not to be blamed if the Greuelpropagandists failed in their homework.

I'd say that "Revisionists" have a rather hard time convincing anyone other than hopeless suckers and their fellow True Believers that historians and criminal justice authorities have failed to thoroughly and competently uncover and assess the evidence, let alone that they are "Greuelpropagandists". What I would call Greuelpropaganda is stuff like this:

Even if I and the other revisionists, or deniers - take your
pick - are wrong about the Holocaust, there is still no
reason for the victors of World War II or Jews to wear any
mantel of moral righteousness. If the Nazis had murdered
millions of innocent people in gas chambers that certainly
would have been a great and deplorable crime - but, it would
still have been humane compared to what the Allies actually
did during World War II. The US and Great Britain murdered
millions of innocent people by quite literally roasting them
to death. The Jewish involvement in those crimes, especially
the nuclear bombing of Japan, are as deep as anyone's.

Smith's mentor Friedrich Paul Berg as quoted under

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... nt-of-berg

Berg is the same fellow who produced this immortal statement, by the way:

Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.

“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

[Scott Smith]

They cannot be burned immediately and have to be handled by somebody. The lice will try to find living hosts as long as they remain alive but don't pack up and go fishing either. So, what other vectors are there? Well, there are the Sonderkommando and perhaps the SS overseers themselves who could become ridden from all these corpses in proximity. Perhaps we don't care about their health but we don't want disease spreading beyond the Kremas where we are trying to contain and destroy it.

Then have them take a shower while their clothes are disinfested in the delousing room. No need to cyclon the bloody morgue.

They would need to do that too. But the delousing room showers are not at the Krema building/morgue. Here we have a use for showerheads, after all, as per the invoice.

[Roberto]

Then have them take a shower while their clothes are disinfested in the delousing room. No need to cyclon the bloody morgue.

They would need to do that too. But the delousing room showers are not at the Krema building/morgue. Here we have a use for showerheads, after all, as per the invoice.

Sure.

Inside the corpse cellar, right next to the stiffs.

Mounted on wooden planks and not connected to water mains.

These minor inconveniences aside, the number of showerheads was also much lower (14 showers on 210 square meters) than what would have corresponded to the concentration of showers in the showering rooms in the main camp (115 showers), even at the time of the Hungarian deportations when there were almost 900 Sonderkommando folks around.

And I thought the SS cared about the health and well-being of especially these very important prisoners ...

[Xanthro]

That makes no sense at all. I don't know if HCN kills germs or not, but hot air and steam and microwaves do; however, all delousing methods certainly do kill the vector for the typhus disease, which is body-lice. And the dead/diseased bodies are infested with it. They cannot be burned immediately and have to be handled by somebody.

So you argument is that bodies were fumigated because they needed to be handled.

Do you think everyone simply died in the morgue? Or did the Nazis have some method of creating Jewish Zombies that moved their own dead bodies to morgues?

If someone can move the body to the morgue, they could move it to the crematorium.

There is no reason to use HCN in a morgue anyway, as it can't affect germs, and no lice would be on a dead body minutes after death.

The lice would leave a dead body long before those lice could be killed by any feasible concentration of HCN.

Xanthro

[Scott Smith]

Then have them take a shower while their clothes are disinfested in the delousing room. No need to cyclon the bloody morgue.

They would need to do that too. But the delousing room showers are not at the Krema building/morgue. Here we have a use for showerheads, after all, as per the invoice.

Sure.

Inside the corpse cellar, right next to the stiffs.

Mounted on wooden planks and not connected to water mains.

In the Krema building, silly, unless you think that the building had no plumbing. We don't even know for certain if the Leichenkeller actually was used as a morgue or for something else less nefarious than homicide.

[Scott Smith]

That makes no sense at all. I don't know if HCN kills germs or not, but hot air and steam and microwaves do; however, all delousing methods certainly do kill the vector for the typhus disease, which is body-lice. And the dead/diseased bodies are infested with it. They cannot be burned immediately and have to be handled by somebody.

So you argument is that bodies were fumigated because they needed to be handled.

It stands to reason that bodies taken to the Kremas would need to be handled and that those handleers would then need to be decontaminated. Hence it seems logical that they could do this at the Krema building itself and that that building would need a periodic fumigation, especially with bodies piling up. What are they doing with the clothing of the dead? Delousing it, of course. That might have also been done there.

If someone can move the body to the morgue, they could move it to the crematorium.

A central point were the bodies would be stored pending more permanent disposal would be an ideal place for disinfestation (HCN) and/or disinfection (soap and water, steam or antiseptics).

There is no reason to use HCN in a morgue anyway, as it can't affect germs, and no lice would be on a dead body minutes after death.

Then why bother to fumigate clothing to kill the lice? Just hang it up for a few minutes without a living body and reissue it. If some laundry soap was all that was needed to kill lice and nits no Zyklon would have been at the camp in the first place.

The lice would leave a dead body long before those lice could be killed by any feasible concentration of HCN.

So the bodies were stripped of their clothing at the delousing stations and then carted off to the Kremas. And no other vermin are attracted to the corpses? That doesn't make sense. The Sonderkommando would need to be decontaminated after every day's work to keep from spreading disease.

[Sailor]

Said Sefton Delmer, the British War Propaganda Chief, after WWII:

We shall continue this atrocity propaganda, we shall intensify it, until nobody shall accept a good word from Germans anymore, until all the sympathy they had in other countries shall be destroyed, and until the Germans themselves shall be so confused that they do not know anymore what they are doing!

On the Nizkook site: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschw ... nails.html is an architectural plan view "k2-constr-plans-0932.jpg" of the Krema II morgues (Roberto told me about this plan on the other board, thanks little buddy!).

The plan shows for morgue 1, the alleged gas chamber, between each second column pair a couple of thin diagonals crossing the room, which indicate that the floor is sloped towards the center with the low point in the middle, at the crossing of the lines.

Where the diagonal lines are crossing are shown small squares with a cross inside. These indicate the provision for floor drains.

Now it is a fact that all these floor drains throughout the building, lower floor as upper floor, are interconnected and then brought to a sump outside. Same as in your house or apartment building, same as in your office. At that time these drainage pipes were probably made of clay with at least 6" diameter.

Now I ask: What provisions were taken by the members of the "Sonderkommandos" to avoid spreading of the poisonous HCN gas throughout the building via the drainage system, while allegedly 2000 - 3000 naked people, men, women and children, were inside the morgue being processed? What prevented the guards and the many stokers who operated the crematorium ovens upstairs from inhaling the dangerous stuff? What did the "Sonderkommando" eyewitness people like Henryk Tauber et al. report in their sworn testimonies about the provisions they made to prevent this? I can't find anything. Did I miss something?

[Roberto]

What provisions were taken by the members of the "Sonderkommandos" to avoid spreading of the poisonous HCN gas throughout the building via the drainage system, while allegedly 2000 - 3000 naked people, men, women and children, were inside the morgue being processed?

Assuming the True Believer knows something about architecture (which I don't), the questions would be:

i) How would the gas spread throughout the building through the drainage system, assuming there was one ?
ii) How long would that take to happen? If no longer than the time it took to a) gas and b) ventilate, no problem.

What prevented the guards and the many stokers who operated the crematorium ovens upstairs from inhaling the dangerous stuff?

Assuming the True Believer knows something about architecture (which I don't), the question would be where the True Believer got the idea that in crematoria II and III the Sonderkommando folks operated the ovens on the first floor while gassing was going on in the basement?