Babi Yar

[Dan]

On the old board, I posted a link to an article in a Ukrainian newspaper which said the victoms were Christians killed by the Soviets, and not Jews killed by Germans.

I see now there was evidently a commission, which officially established this to be so, but I don't know anything about this commision or it's findings.

I hesitate to provide a link, and the article comes from Irving's site, and sources German TV as reported by a German vet who imolated himself publicly in 1995. I don't want the thread to get shut down.

The report was in 1988, anyone know about it?

Dan

[Dan]

Why not:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/03/Elstner_Letter.html

Best

Dan

[Roberto]

On the old board, I posted a link to an article in a Ukrainian newspaper which said the victoms were Christians killed by the Soviets, and not Jews killed by Germans.

I see now there was evidently a commission, which officially established this to be so, but I don't know anything about this commision or it's findings.

I hesitate to provide a link, and the article comes from Irving's site, and sources German TV as reported by a German vet who imolated himself publicly in 1995. I don't want the thread to get shut down.

The report was in 1988, anyone know about it?

Dan

Interesting. I wonder what the Ukrainian newspaper makes of Operational Situation Report No. 128 of Einsatzgruppe C, which translates as follows:

Operational Situation Report USSR No. 128

The Chief of the Security Police and Security Service
Berlin,
November 2, 1941

50 copies
----------------
[50th copy]

(see distribution list)


OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No. 128


Einsatzgruppe C
Location: Kiev
...............

Execution activities
As to purely execution matters, approximately 80,000 person have been liquidated by now by the Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppe.

Among these are approximately 8,000 person convicted after investigation of anti-German or Bolshevist activities.

The remainder was liquidated in retaliatory actions.

Several retaliatory measures were carried out as large-scale actions. The largest of these actions took place immediately after the occupation of Kiev. It was carried out exclusively against Jews and their entire families.

The difficulties resulting from such a large-scale action, in particular concerning the round-up, were overcome in Kiev by requesting the Jewish population to assemble, using wall posters. Although at first only the participation of 5-6000 Jews had been expected, more than 30,000 Jews arrived who, until the moment of their execution, still believed in their resettlement, thanks to extremely clever organization [propaganda].

Even though approximately 75,000 Jews have been liquidated in this manner, it is evident at this time that this cannot be the best solution of the Jewish problem. Although we succeeded, particularly in smaller towns and villages, in bringing about a complete liquidation of the Jewish problem, nevertheless, again and again it has been observed in the larger cities that after such an action, all Jews have indeed been eradicated. But, when after a certain period of time a Kommando returns, the number of Jews still found in the city always surpasses considerably the number of executed Jews.

Besides, the Kommandos have also carried out military actions in numerous cases. On request of the Army, separate platoons of the Kommandos have repeatedly combed the woods searching for partisans, and have accomplished successful work there.

Besides, prisoners-of-war marching along the highways were systematically overtaken [by the Kommandos of the EG]. All those elements were liquidated who did not possess identification papers and who were suspected, once set free, of [possibly] committing acts of sabotage against the German Army, the German authorities, or the population. In numerous cases, systematic searches for parachutists were carried out, with the result that approximately 20 parachutists were captured, among them a Russian who, at his interrogation supplied extremely important information to the Army.

Finally, it should be mentioned that prisoners-of-war were taken over from the prisoner assembly points and the prisoner-of-war transit camps, although at times, considerable disagreements with the camp commander occurred.


...............

Collaboration with the Wehrmacht and the Secret Field Police
This concerns the relation of the Einsatzgruppe and its Kommandos with other offices and authorities. Its relation to the Army is especially noteworthy. From the outset, the Einsatzgruppe succeeded in establishing excellent terms with all Army headquarters. This made it possible for the Einsatzgruppe never to operate in the rear of the military zone. On the contrary, the request was frequently made by the Army to operate as far on the front as possible. In a great number of cases, it happened that the support of the Einsatzkommandos was requested by the fighting troops. Advance detachments of the Einsatzgruppe also participated in every large military action. They entered newly captured localities side by side with the fighting troops. Thus, in all cases, the utmost support was given. For example, in this connection, it is worth mentioning the participation in the capture of Zhitomir, where the first tanks entering the city were immediately followed by three cars of Einsatzkommando 4a.

As a result of the successful work of the Einsatzgruppe, the Security Police is also held in high regard, in particular by the HQ of the German Army. The liaison officers stationed in Army HQ are loyally briefed of all military operations, and, besides, they receive the utmost cooperation. The Commander of the 6th Army, Generalfeldmarschall von Richenau, has repeatedly praised the work of the Einsatzkommandos and, accordingly, supported the interests of the SD with his staff. The extraordinary success of the Kommandos was a contributing factor: for example, the capture of Major-General Sokolov, then information concerning a plan by parachutists to blast a bridge, and the transmission of other important military information.

Only with respect to the Jewish problem could a complete understanding with junior Army officers not be reached until quite recently. This was most noticeable during the taking over of prisoner-of-war camps. As a particularly clear example, the conduct of a camp commander in Vinitsa is to be mentioned. He strongly objected to the transfer of 362 Jewish prisoners-of-war carried out by his deputy, and even started court martial proceedings against the deputy and two other officers. Unfortunately, it often occurred that the Einsatzkommandos had to suffer more or less hidden reproaches for their persistent stand on the Jewish problem. Another difficulty was added by the order from the Army High Command prohibiting entry by the SD into the POW transit camps. (1) These difficulties have probably been overcome by now due to a new order from the Army High Command. This order clearly states that the Wehrmacht has to cooperate in the solution of this problem, and, in particular, that the necessary authorizations must be granted the SD to the fullest extent. However, it became evident in the past few days that this policy-making order still has not reached lower [military] authorities. In the future, further cooperation and assistance by the Wehrmacht authorities can be expected. As far as the province of the 6th Army HQ is concerned, Generalfeldmarschall von Reichenau issued an order on October 10, 1941, which states clearly that the Russian soldier has to be considered in principal to be a representative of Bolshevism and thus to be treated accordingly by the Wehrmacht.

No difficulties whatsoever resulted from the cooperation with the Secret Military Police. To be sure, it was noted that the Security Military Police preferred to handle matters concerning the Security Police only, evidently because of a lack of other duties; however, these defects were always eliminated following consultation. Besides, the latest order of the Chief of the Military Police has probably eliminated any remaining doubts. The exchange of informational material between the SD and the GFP took place without any disagreement. The original doubts whether the GFP would not retain some of the cases were not justified. Besides, it has already been ordered by Army HQ and its staff that matters concerning the Security Police have to be immediately transferred to the Kommandos.

As for the counter-intelligence offices in the rear, the work there is running smoothly. Counter-intelligence officers regularly visit [EK Hqts] and Kommandos in order to transfer files, as well as to receive orders.

Since the work of the Security Police has been carried out smoothly and has won high recognition, it can be assumed that this present relationship will also be maintained in the future.

Source of quote:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/osr128.html

This is not to say that no Christians were executed by the Germans at Babi Yar. In fact many thousands were, both prisoners of war and civilians of Russian or Ukrainian ethnicity. It is characteristic of the anti-Semitic attitude of the Soviet government that only the non-Jewish victims received a monument:

BABI YAR
(Sept. 29/30, 1941) A picturesque ravine situated in the Syrets suburb of the city of Kiev. It was about three kilometres long, over fifty metres deep and seperated from the residential area by the local cemetery and a civilian prison. There, on September 29, the SS (Einsatzgruppe C, with the help of the Ukrainian police) herded the whole Jewish population of Kiev and the surrounding area, into the ravine and systematically began to slaughter the entire 33,771 souls. They were individually executed with a bullet in the neck. The killing took a whole two days, the bodies then burned in pyres, each containing around 2,000 corpses. Later the SS brought in excavators and bulldozers and the ravine was filled in. In early October, Moscow informed the outside world of the discovery of the mass grave. The West, mistrustful of the Russians, dismissed the news as 'products of the Slavic imagination'. During the 778 days of the German occupation of Kiev, many thousands of Russian POWs, Ukrainians and other nationalities, were killed at Babi Yar . Of a total population of around 900,000, only 180,000 were living in Kiev at the end of the German occupation. In 1976, a 15 metre high memorial was unveiled on the site to commemorate the Russian POWs who were killed there. However, no reference is made to the Jews or number of Jewish dead.

Source of quote:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

[Angelo]

Thanks Medor for the documents.
Yes, I guess it won't be easy to tear those reports to shreds.

One thing I would like Dan's opinion about is this:

I went and read the AR page containing that piece of news.
Now, am I too demanding if I ask what's the name of the alleged Ukrainian commission that investigated the matter.
What kind of commision is the AR report talking about ?
State ? Political ? Historical ?
Also, where is the reference enabling any one, you and me included, to check the documents (I guess there should be some) about the findings ?
How was the commission organized ? How many members ? What kind of credentials ?
What kind of research was actually carried out ? On paper documents ? On the spot with excavations and examination of eventual residual remains of the corpses ?
Is it correct to make history the way that report does, lacking any evidence and any reference except for a generic "german tv report" with no indication of the day and month and where not even the year is mentioned, though a few preceding hints might induce to think it might have been 1991 ?
I don't know but if this is the way history is being investigated I guess we'd better forget about it.

Thanks for your opinions, Dan.

Angelo

Please go and read how history gets straightened up at:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/03/Elstner_Letter.html

[Dan]

Angelo, thanks for the offer to straighten me up, but if you'll read my post again, I was asking the same questions you just asked me. I suppose it doesn't occur to you that I have an honest question?

: Dan

[Angelo]

Thanks, Dan.

No, it did occur, believe me. In fact, I was only expressing my distaste for the way that "revisionist" site is handling that matter.

I'm glad to see you probably asked yourself the same questions.

Angelo

[Dan]

Thanks, and yes, I'm asking those questions and others. I have always had quite a bit of contempt for conspiricy types for religious reasons. I hold to the same view as St. Augustine that history flows kinda backwards, but that's another subject. (The 2nd Psalm sums it up).

It's just that here in the US, I've pretty much got to go to sites like Irving's to get the "other side", if you'll accept that phrasing.

Best
Dan

[Angelo]

I guess I know what you mean.

That's what I'm doing too.

There was a time in Italy you couldn't even mention the word "fascist" without being labelled as a fan of that ideology. Today, if you start criticizing some aspects of the current administration, you're tagged as a left-over of the old Communist Party yearning for a revival of Stalin's methods.
Who knows, maybe my grandchildren will be offered a more reasonable athmosfere...or an even worse one

Ok, my only point is this: all of us should strive to have the young ones undestand that violence and hatred (of whatever color) will only bring more tears and tragedies, while reasonableness, understanding and sharing can help us and those yet to come to live again the terrific experiences of the past.
But it is not easy

Angelo

[Angelo]

(This 1 was just an UNWANTED double of the previous 1)
Meant to delete it, but I couldn't.

Angelo

[Gwynn Compton]

The initial post in this thread actually contains a thread of truth to it. Somewhere near Kiev in 1941-42 the German's discovered a mass grave of Ukranians which the Russians had left there. However this is not connected to the massacre which occured at Babi Yar.

[Gwynn Compton]

And for the sake of reference I believe I found that one in Antony Beevor's Stalingrad.

[Angelo]

Thanks for the info Gwynn and that makes me twice as sad as I think those poor folks there had been first mashed by the Soviets and then
again by the S.S.

At times I'm glad I was born in Italy

Angelo

[michael mills]

Medorjurgen wrote:

This is not to say that no Christians were executed by the Germans at Babi Yar. In fact many thousands were, both prisoners of war and civilians of Russian or Ukrainian ethnicity. It is characteristic of the anti-Semitic attitude of the Soviet government that only the non-Jewish victims received a monument

As is usual with most of Medorjurgen's claims about anti-Semitism, the above statement is highly tendentious.

The source quoted by him stated that a memorial erected by the Soviet Government after the War commemorated the Soviet POWs killed at Babi Yar. On what grounds does Medorjurgen claim that Jews were specifically excluded by that memorial? Soviet POWs were of many different nationalities including Jews, and it was in fact Jewish POWs who were singled out, along with commissars and other Communist functionaries who were singled out for execution.

In line with its normal policy, the Soviet Government did not want to emphasise the ethnicity of particular groups of victims, so as not to contribute to the stirring up of ethnic conflict. Instead, it emphasised the common Soviet citizenship of the victims, hardly an example of anti-Semitism I would think. I note that no memorials were specifically dedicated to the civilians of Russian and Ukrainian ethnicity who were killed at Babi Yar according to Medorjurgen either. Instead, a memorial was erected to the victims who had been members of a group representing all Soviet nationalities, the Red Army.

The supposed anti-Semitism of the Soviet Union is a myth invented by Zionist agitators in the years when the Soviet Union supported the Arab side in the Arab-Jewish conflict, and when the mass emigration of Soviet Jewry was being called for.

[Gwynn Compton]

Stalin even tried to create a Zionist place in the Soviet Union for Jews who did not want to go to the violence in the Holy Land. Initially it attracted large numbers of immigrants, however after the first generation they all began going to Israel.

There was quite an interesting article in National Geographic about it.

[Roberto]

And for the sake of reference I believe I found that one in Antony Beevor's Stalingrad.

That's good to know. I have the book at home and can thus look it up.