In a book Chronik des zweiten Weltkriegs is an excerpt from memories of one of the Jews from Dachau. It´s in German. I will try to translate and post it here as soon as possible.
Also, I read that only two Germans survived the massacre. One was an Armenian descent and he was giving up with red cross flag in his hands, so it´s possible that the Americans thought he is a medic.
The second survivor, what is very very strange, was gypsy. He was probable considered as a civilian from one of the German-occupied countries, who HAD to volunteer into German army and had nothing to do with the massacre.
I´m also wondering about the U.S. officer who was trying to stop the massacre when that Indian starts firing with his machine gun and fires a few rounds from his colt. Did he change his opinion and join the SS killing?
Massacre of SS guards at Dachau
Without taking no sides, condemning nor approving the killing of the guards, I am honestly amazed that this kind of thing did not happen more often and even in larger scale. The thought had to go through the minds of many soldiers liberating the camps. Maybe the Americans (or the Brittish, never experienced the horrors that of the Eastern front) were not so numb from the war, since the real suffering never touched their homeland, therefore the threatment of prisoners were not based on hatered or revenge, but on laws of war and humanity.
Too often it can be seen today what does the cycle of revenge do to simple people form two sides of the front, basicly coming from same backgrounds...
Too often it can be seen today what does the cycle of revenge do to simple people form two sides of the front, basicly coming from same backgrounds...
Actually most of the Germans in the main picture on the wall did not die.Lipton wrote:In a book Chronik des zweiten Weltkriegs is an excerpt from memories of one of the Jews from Dachau. It´s in German. I will try to translate and post it here as soon as possible.
Also, I read that only two Germans survived the massacre. One was an Armenian descent and he was giving up with red cross flag in his hands, so it´s possible that the Americans thought he is a medic.
The second survivor, what is very very strange, was gypsy. He was probable considered as a civilian from one of the German-occupied countries, who HAD to volunteer into German army and had nothing to do with the massacre.
I´m also wondering about the U.S. officer who was trying to stop the massacre when that Indian starts firing with his machine gun and fires a few rounds from his colt. Did he change his opinion and join the SS killing?
And no Lt Col. Sparks did not change his opinion, he kicked the soldier with the machine gun and drug him by his collar to stop him shooting.
Here is the information that is well documented in this thread.
Sparks, alarmed by the sudden machine-gun burst, raced back to the coal yard, firing his pistol in the air and furiously signaling with his left hand for his men to stop shooting.
''Some young private was on the machine gun, and I kicked him and knocked him forward,'' Sparks recalled in the interview. ''I then dragged him by the collar -- he was a small man -- and he was crying. He said, 'They were trying to get away.' They weren't trying to get away at all. And then everything was very quiet.''
The Germans lay crumpled at the base of the stucco wall. At first, it seemed scores had been killed in the gunfire. When the Americans ordered survivors to stand, however, they said many did.
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Rob - wssob2
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Hi folks - just wanted to tell you that I've posted some updated biographical information on Wicker, the SS officer who surrendered KZ Dachau, at
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36603
thanks! - Rob
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=36603
thanks! - Rob
Here isa reply on this old thread, butstill it has some two side story.
I have the last days correspondet with a member of the 45th US Division
who libirated the KL Dachau. On one of the questions had to him,
most about SS-Ustuf H Wickert, but i wondered what happened with those
SS-men who became POWs. his reply to that is:
*******
3) I have no idea as to what happened to the surviving SS soldiers. I
doubt if any of our men, or those of the 45th division who were also
present on April 29, had any knowledge that the guards that day, except
for Lt. Wickert and maybe his orderly, were from the Waffen SS "Viking"
division. Even if our men had known, few of us would have made any
distinction at the time between Waffen SS and the Death Head camp guards.
********
I think this eyewitness will spread some light on the issue.
Best reg.
Georg
I have the last days correspondet with a member of the 45th US Division
who libirated the KL Dachau. On one of the questions had to him,
most about SS-Ustuf H Wickert, but i wondered what happened with those
SS-men who became POWs. his reply to that is:
*******
3) I have no idea as to what happened to the surviving SS soldiers. I
doubt if any of our men, or those of the 45th division who were also
present on April 29, had any knowledge that the guards that day, except
for Lt. Wickert and maybe his orderly, were from the Waffen SS "Viking"
division. Even if our men had known, few of us would have made any
distinction at the time between Waffen SS and the Death Head camp guards.
********
I think this eyewitness will spread some light on the issue.
Best reg.
Georg
i have followed this thread with intrest some people believe it happened others dont believe surely this depends on what documents you have read on the subject personal thoughts should not come into it i would ask your contributors on this thread to look at http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html page14/15
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AdolfDettmer
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- Location: Michigan
Uninen,
The topic of whether the Waffen-SS and SS-Totenkopfverbande were working in conjunction has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and many others.
The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal orginisation, so the legal standpoint is "Yes" the Waffen-SS was implicated in crimes against humanity. So the Waffen-SS was not just this "Elite" fighting unit.
Many members of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were drawn from the SS as either volunteers, forced transfers, or punishment. Likewise many of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were transferred into the Waffen-SS combat formations.
But either way, if the Waffen-SS was just this heroic band of Nordic Warriors, how come they did not summarily execute the SS-Totenkopfverbande? How come the Waffen-SS assisted the SS-Totenkopfverbande operations against the "Partisans" on the Eastern Front?
Learn to read real literature and stop citing bunk revisionist propaganda. You choose to ignore people much more well versed in these topics than you or myself.
William Richardson
The topic of whether the Waffen-SS and SS-Totenkopfverbande were working in conjunction has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and many others.
The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal orginisation, so the legal standpoint is "Yes" the Waffen-SS was implicated in crimes against humanity. So the Waffen-SS was not just this "Elite" fighting unit.
Many members of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were drawn from the SS as either volunteers, forced transfers, or punishment. Likewise many of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were transferred into the Waffen-SS combat formations.
But either way, if the Waffen-SS was just this heroic band of Nordic Warriors, how come they did not summarily execute the SS-Totenkopfverbande? How come the Waffen-SS assisted the SS-Totenkopfverbande operations against the "Partisans" on the Eastern Front?
Learn to read real literature and stop citing bunk revisionist propaganda. You choose to ignore people much more well versed in these topics than you or myself.
William Richardson
Hello William,AdolfDettmer wrote:Uninen,
The topic of whether the Waffen-SS and SS-Totenkopfverbande were working in conjunction has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and many others.
The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal orginisation, so the legal standpoint is "Yes" the Waffen-SS was implicated in crimes against humanity. So the Waffen-SS was not just this "Elite" fighting unit.
Many members of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were drawn from the SS as either volunteers, forced transfers, or punishment. Likewise many of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were transferred into the Waffen-SS combat formations.
But either way, if the Waffen-SS was just this heroic band of Nordic Warriors, how come they did not summarily execute the SS-Totenkopfverbande? How come the Waffen-SS assisted the SS-Totenkopfverbande operations against the "Partisans" on the Eastern Front?
Learn to read real literature and stop citing bunk revisionist propaganda. You choose to ignore people much more well versed in these topics than you or myself.
William Richardson
I couldn´t resist respnd on your msg. How on the earth could put a line between SS-TV and those who fought partisans in the east.
SS-TV (Totenkopfverbände) was only a camp unit and wasn´t put into action against partisans or in regulare fighting. Exept those
of the SS-TV. St. Oberbayern who participateed in the Sudetenland "anschluss". And the time as late as in 1941 the SS-TV had sized to exist as a unit as well as SS-Verfügungstruppe. All was labeled Waffen-SS, but then those who was attached to the Camp was stationed into SS--Totenkopf Sturmbanne KL "Auschwitz", "Mauthausen" etc etc.
But they never saw action as units So trying to put one other warcrime (?) on them is wrong.
/Georg
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AdolfDettmer
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- Location: Michigan
Hello Georg,Hello William,
I couldn´t resist respnd on your msg. How on the earth could put a line between SS-TV and those who fought partisans in the east.
SS-TV (Totenkopfverbände) was only a camp unit and wasn´t put into action against partisans or in regulare fighting. Exept those
of the SS-TV. St. Oberbayern who participateed in the Sudetenland "anschluss". And the time as late as in 1941 the SS-TV had sized to exist as a unit as well as SS-Verfügungstruppe. All was labeled Waffen-SS, but then those who was attached to the Camp was stationed into SS--Totenkopf Sturmbanne KL "Auschwitz", "Mauthausen" etc etc.
But they never saw action as units So trying to put one other warcrime (?) on them is wrong.
/Georg
I may have trouble understanding your post, but I believe what you are attempting to convey is the idea that the SS-TV/KZ Gaurds were not seperate from the Waffen-SS, if that is the case, I agree with you.
But if you are arguing that the KZ-Gaurds were seperate from the general Waffen-SS, I would happen to disagree. Please clarify your post so that I may respond to it.
Sorry for the confusion.
William Richardson
OK I am making another try, you wrote "How come the Waffen-SS assisted the SS-Totenkopfverbande operations against the "Partisans" on the Eastern Front?" : At the time being og the Operation Barbarossa, the SS-TV (SS-Totenkopfverbände) had seized to exist as a unit. As well as the SS-VT had, all was labeled "Waffen-SS", but still there was exclusive units who the only duty they had was guarding the camps, such as SS-Totenkopf Sturmbanne KL "Name of the camp". But I wonder where you got the info that the SS-TV did that, as you stated?AdolfDettmer wrote:Uninen,
The topic of whether the Waffen-SS and SS-Totenkopfverbande were working in conjunction has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and many others.
The Waffen-SS was declared a criminal orginisation, so the legal standpoint is "Yes" the Waffen-SS was implicated in crimes against humanity. So the Waffen-SS was not just this "Elite" fighting unit.
Many members of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were drawn from the SS as either volunteers, forced transfers, or punishment. Likewise many of the SS-Totenkopfverbande were transferred into the Waffen-SS combat formations.
But either way, if the Waffen-SS was just this heroic band of Nordic Warriors, how come they did not summarily execute the SS-Totenkopfverbande? How come the Waffen-SS assisted the SS-Totenkopfverbande operations against the "Partisans" on the Eastern Front?
Learn to read real literature and stop citing bunk revisionist propaganda. You choose to ignore people much more well versed in these topics than you or myself.
William Richardson
There was other units who exlusive fought against partisans, but you can´t say that it was the former SS-TV who did it. But maybe you are confusing between SS-Totenkopf Division or? But No, it can´t be. Because they didnt fight the partisans more then another division of the German forces.
//Georg
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AdolfDettmer
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- Location: Michigan
Georg,
Firstly thank you for clarifying your statement, I apologise again for not being able to understand it the first time.
Well, thank you for pointing out my error, I accidentally mislabelled the "Einsatzgruppen" as the SS-Totenkopfverbande.
I would also like to point out that some members of the "Einsatzgruppen" which were involved in the mass murder of Jews, Bolsheviks, and "Partisans" were drawn from the Waffen-SS. The Waffen-SS DID assist the Einsatzgruppen in there activities. ( But to their credit, virtually all cases of cooperation between the Waffen-SS and Einsatzgruppen was under duress. But the cooperation, whether voluntary or not, was still immoral and criminal.)
I am sorry for the confusion, it was entirely my fault. Forgive me.
William Richardson[/b]
Firstly thank you for clarifying your statement, I apologise again for not being able to understand it the first time.
Well, thank you for pointing out my error, I accidentally mislabelled the "Einsatzgruppen" as the SS-Totenkopfverbande.
I would also like to point out that some members of the "Einsatzgruppen" which were involved in the mass murder of Jews, Bolsheviks, and "Partisans" were drawn from the Waffen-SS. The Waffen-SS DID assist the Einsatzgruppen in there activities. ( But to their credit, virtually all cases of cooperation between the Waffen-SS and Einsatzgruppen was under duress. But the cooperation, whether voluntary or not, was still immoral and criminal.)
I am sorry for the confusion, it was entirely my fault. Forgive me.
William Richardson[/b]
Newcomer here... I've recently been reading Victor Klemperer's fascinating diaries concerning his years spent in Nazi Germany as a Jew (who survived largely due to the fact that he had an Aryan wife). Anyway, he was in the near vicinity of Dachau at war's end, so I ended up looking up a bit about it online. I notice that Wikipedia's entry on the Dachau massacre seems to quote the "560" number as the number of SS men killed, which I understand (from reading here) is in much dispute.
I was wondering if someone (who knows more about this than I) could go there and fill in a little more information.
I was wondering if someone (who knows more about this than I) could go there and fill in a little more information.