Massacre of SS guards at Dachau

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Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 23 Feb 2004 22:30

Panzer Faust wrote:
JohnRayTaylor wrote:Caldric are you saying US troops never committed a war crime?

JohnRayTaylor


At Dachau, American 'soldiers' executed 560 unarmed, and surrendered SS personnel against a wall.


I think you will find there is good evidence against that number, the author of that number has been debunked on more then one occasion on this very forum I will try to find the links. Also considering the circumstance I would myself most likely had little concern for the shooting. Trainloads of dead civilian’s bodies stacked up in heaps. How far do you expect men under combat stress to go before they snap?

It is not like they walked into a peaceful village and rounded up the old and young and shot them against a wall.

At any rate I do not see how this has much to do about rape.

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Michael Miller
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Howdy, "Armored Fist"...

Post by Michael Miller » 23 Feb 2004 22:32

560, huh? "Against a wall", huh? One wall... damn, that's a lot of shooting. How long was this wall? How many executioners. That many bodies-- there must have been an enormous puddle of blood. I'm sure it would be visible in photos (but I've seen the photos, and it's not).

Do you have a list of names? Do you have proof that they were all "unarmed" and "surrendered"?

This has been discussed numerous times on this very forum, and the "560" claim has been debunked just as many times.

~ Mike

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Post by Vadim » 23 Feb 2004 22:38

Panzer Faust wrote:At Dachau, American 'soldiers' executed 560 unarmed, and surrendered SS personnel against a wall.


The number of slain SS men was significantly lower than 560, there are many threads on this forum about "Dachau massacre". 560 was the total number of SS men there, if I remember right?
This is the same situation as with Red Army in East Prussia: after Americans entered Dachau and saw what they saw, how exactly would one expect them to behave towards captured SS men?
Besides, Dachau itself was a war crime, dont forget that.

From what I heard from both Soviet and US veterans, it was an unspoken law to execute any captured SS men on the spot.

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Feb 2004 23:22

[This post from Panzer Faust was moved from the thread on the supposed "rape tradition" of the western allies.]

I think you will find there is good evidence against that number, the author of that number has been debunked on more then one occasion on this very forum I will try to find the links.


I have read this book: The hour of the avenger. And no, its not 'racist' or this revionism. But it shows statistics, pictures and story’s of the people involved and testimony’s of a medic who have witnessed the crime.

Trainloads of dead civilian’s bodies stacked up in heaps. How far do you expect men under combat stress to go before they snap?


When a Palestinian finds his family slaughtered by the jewish 'defense' force, and when he loses it it is terrorist. But when an American officer in chare, named Buchyhead (indian decent and a left-winger anti-German) kills together with his murdering comrades 560 unarmed SS men, well that’s just wonderful: Don’t mind! They just 'could not handled the stress'.

It is not like they walked into a peaceful village and rounded up the old and young and shot them against a wall.


I am talking about the camp, not the village.

At any rate I do not see how this has much to do about rape.


Mean ether, I was just responding on someone who started to talk about American war crimes.

560, huh? "Against a wall", huh? One wall... damn, that's a lot of shooting. How long was this wall?


Quite large, whoever, there was a lot of space between the executioners and the German captives. So those hundreds could easily been shot. Here on this pic, I can see that there were standing allot of Guards before the wall.

Do you have a list of names?


You want 560 names?

Do you have proof that they were all "unarmed" and "surrendered"?


You will probably wont hear this on a holocaust site, but yes I have proof.

This is the same situation as with Red Army in East Prussia: after Americans entered Dachau and saw what they saw, how exactly would one expect them to behave towards captured SS men?


Well I think under the propaganda conditions that the Americans were living under in America, full with hate towards the Germans.

Besides, Dachau itself was a war crime, don’t forget that.


I am not sure,

From what I heard from both Soviet and US veterans, it was an unspoken law to execute any captured SS men on the spot.


The soviets were not at Dachau, they were busy raping German kids and woman in pommerania.

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Post by Vadim » 23 Feb 2004 23:41

Panzer,
I have read this book: The hour of the avenger. And no, its not 'racist' or this revionism.
Really? Then why if you do a Google search for that book, the first 15-20 links to pop up will be to the most rabid Revisionist/Denial sites?

Quote:
Do you have a list of names?


You want 560 names?
Are you implying that you have them?

You will probably wont hear this on a holocaust site, but yes I have proof.
Of course you do. But you would not share it with us because you are selfish...

Quote:
This is the same situation as with Red Army in East Prussia: after Americans entered Dachau and saw what they saw, how exactly would one expect them to behave towards captured SS men?


Well I think under the propaganda conditions that the Americans were living under in America, full with hate towards the Germans.
Tell me, have you talked with any US soldiers who liberated Dachau or any other camp? I have and many still have nightmares about what they saw 50-60 years later. It is not about propaganda.

Quote:
Besides, Dachau itself was a war crime, don’t forget that.


I am not sure,
You are not sure Dachau was a war crime? Please enlighten us.

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Post by _The_General_ » 23 Feb 2004 23:46

whitch picture's are you talking about ?

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Post by Caldric » 23 Feb 2004 23:54

Here are some of the images:

The boston globe appears to have the video also but I do not have Realplayer at the moment:

Image

Lt. Col. Felix Sparks fires his pistol into the air to stop his troops from shooting their German prisoners.
(Photo courtesy of Arthur W. Lee Jr.)

'It was wrong what happened there. But you had to have been there to see what we saw ...'

Pvt. JOHN LEE

'The people that we killed died a much easier death than the people they tortured and killed ...'

Lt. Col. FELIX SPARKS

''I don't think there was any SS guy who was shot or killed in the defense of Dachau that wondered why he was killed, or wondered about it, or couldn't figure it out. I think they all knew goddamned-well-right why some of them were killed down in the camp. Goddamn-well-right. And some day, as I said, when I get to hell, I'll check it out and find out whether they really understood.

Lt. WILLIAM WALSH

Here is the main photo in question:

Image

All of this comes from:

http://search.boston.com/globe/nation/p ... dex5.shtml

Very interesting read and look at video's from US Vets.

In the last picture you can see that if it were a planned execution and not the heat of the moment the other SS men would have been shot down also that survived the main shooting spree. They were not shot though.

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Post by John W » 23 Feb 2004 23:59

Caldric : I have often seen that photo and one some sites it is said that they were all German POWs, lying face down on the ground awaiting detention. :?

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Post by David Thompson » 24 Feb 2004 00:06

Interested readers can find more on the subject on these threads:

viewtopic.php?t=39250

viewtopic.php?t=39246

viewtopic.php?t=14692

viewtopic.php?t=11153

viewtopic.php?t=1161
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Caldric
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Post by Caldric » 24 Feb 2004 00:06

John W wrote:Caldric : I have often seen that photo and one some sites it is said that they were all German POWs, lying face down on the ground awaiting detention. :?


No they were shot mainly by the prone machinegunner with the .30 cal browning. In the first image you can see the smoke and dust flying from the wall when the Colonel is trying to get them to stop firing.

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Post by Caldric » 24 Feb 2004 00:14

''I was there when they took [the Germans] behind the wall, but didn't have the nerve to see what was going on,'' Competielle testified at the inquiry. ''There was so much excitement that everybody was shouting so you could not tell who the order [to separate the SS men] came from. And all I do know was they separated the SS troops from other prisoners.''

But Competielle knew the Americans' intentions. ''The word just got around that they were going to shoot all the SS'ers,'' he said. ''I figured that is why they were taking them behind the wall. Then I heard somebody ask: Where is a machine gun?''

At that moment Sparks, the battalion commander, said he considered his German captives under guard and secure.

''There was nothing really going on at that time,'' he said in the recent interview. ''It looked like everything was under control, and then I heard some firing off in the vicinity of the concentration camp.''

The gunfire in the near distance, last remnants of resistance from the rapidly retreating and uncaptured German guards, distracted Sparks. He left the coal yard to investigate.

But Sparks's men remained. Lee stood guard with his rifle.





Lieutenant Drain, as ordered, set up his machine gun. Then, he said, he turned and walked away.

Corporal Martin J. Sedler stood next to the gun, and Private William C. Curtin took aim at the Germans, according to testimony at the inquiry.

Lieutenant Walsh was in command.

''He said he was going to shoot the machine gun, and lined up [rifle] men, and called for a few Tommy gunners,'' Curtin testified of Walsh.

Curtin said as he fed the belt into the machine gun, the SS prisoners, by now apparently certain of their captors' intentions, began to move toward the Americans.

''[Walsh] cut loose with his pistol and said, 'Let them have it,''' said Curtin, telling investigators that he fired 30 to 50 rounds in three long bursts.

Lee said he fired only once before his gun jammed. ''Somebody hollered, 'Fire!' and about three rifles and a machine gun started shooting, and my BAR [Browning automatic rifle],'' Lee testified.

Bushyhead, Walsh's executive officer, testified that he believed that he, too, had joined in the firing.

''It was probably no more than 10 seconds, but it seemed like much longer,'' Karl O. Mann, Sparks's interpreter, who witnessed the shooting, said in an interview. ''They fired from left to right and right to left and so on. It wasn't very long, but it was long enough to inflict damage.''

Sparks, alarmed by the sudden machine-gun burst, raced back to the coal yard, firing his pistol in the air and furiously signaling with his left hand for his men to stop shooting.

''Some young private was on the machine gun, and I kicked him and knocked him forward,'' Sparks recalled in the interview. ''I then dragged him by the collar -- he was a small man -- and he was crying. He said, 'They were trying to get away.' They weren't trying to get away at all. And then everything was very quiet.''

The Germans lay crumpled at the base of the stucco wall. At first, it seemed scores had been killed in the gunfire. When the Americans ordered survivors to stand, however, they said many did.


http://search.boston.com/globe/nation/p ... x5_6.shtml

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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 24 Feb 2004 07:18

PanzerFaust,

We’ve discussed the liberation of Dachau at length in a recent thread. Allow me to uncover some facts from underneath the mountain of garbage the events in question are buried under:

1) During the liberation of the Dachau KZ, troops of the 45th and 42nd infantry divisions did engage in several unpremeditated, spontaneous shootings of SS troops during the liberation.

2) There are 3 main documented incidents
– the death train (5 SS men killed)
– the coal yard (17 SS men killed)
– Tower B (10-17 SS men killed)

3) In addition, there are several unconfirmed incidents in which single SS men were killed by US troops and KZ inmates BUT the total number of SS men killed during that day that I can determine, cross checking with multiple sources, is probably no more than 100. Note that my estimate is greater than Herbert Marcuse ("Legacies of Dachau" p52, estimates 40-50 SS killed) but is much less that Buechner’s specious 560.

4) The "560 SS troops" at Dachau is first mentioned in Nerin Gun’s 1966 book The Day of the Americans. Andrew Mollo used this book and this number in his 1980 After the Battle article about the liberation, which Buechner used in his 1986 book The Hour of the Avenger

5) Gun’s book however, is not 100% accurate. He claims that the camp was surrendered by a LSSAH "Lt. Skodzensky" (a man who doesn’t exist) and that a Sherman tank knocked out the gunfire from Tower B (there was no Sherman tank at the liberation) Gun writes on p.60 that "Skodzensky" claimed there were 560 garrison troops under his command. Virtually all accounts that use the "560" number come from this statement attributed to a non-existent SS officer. Gun’s book isn’t even consistent, for on page 66 he quotes the April 30 SHAEF report about the Dachau liberation which states that "300 SS camp guards were quickly neutralized"

6) The REAL SS officer who surrendered the camp was a guy named Wicker. Wicker (note: some English-language accounts spell the name as "Wickert") has often been described as a "Waffen-SS" officer who arrived from the "Eastern Front" on April 27th. In reality, Lt. Heinrich Wicker was a 24-year-old former member of SS-Totenkopf Standarte 1 (SSTK) who served with the SS-WVHA at KZ's Natzweiler-Struthof, Cochem, Mannheim-Sandhofen camps as well as Dachau. He also briefly attended the Bad Tölz officer's school in late 1944/early 1945. We’ve researched this guy’s bio, and have photos of him with General Linden’s party taken during the surrender.

7) The photos you posted are of the coal yard shooting, which happened immediately PRIOR to the US 157th IR troops reaching the protective custody compound. Lt. Col Felix Sparks physically STOPPED the shooting by kicking Pvt. Curtain (the GI on the ground with the .30 cal) in the back and firing his pistol in the air. According to the 7th Army report - Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau compiled by US Seventh Army Assistant Inspector General Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker,in May 1945,, 17 SS out of circa 60 were killed in this incident. The remaining 40 SS troopers were hustled out of the coal yard and the wounded taken to the infirmary. We KNOW the exact number of death from the 7th IG report and we KNOW SS prisoners survived the coal yard shooting – one SS survivor’s (Hans Lindberger ) account of the shooting was printed Erich Kern’s 1968 work "Meineid gegen Deutschland", also printed in a 1988 Belgian W-SS veteran’s article, cited in Marcuse’s book "Legacies of Dachau" and posted on the internet at the Dachau scrapbook site at http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... erger.html

8) It is important to note that the SS troops forced into the coal yard were from the infirmary area outside of the protective custody compound. We have no evidence to indicate that these troops were under Wicker’s command, as Wicker was waiting for US troops at the protective custody compound’s main gate, the jourhaus.

9) We KNOW SS troops survived the liberation on April 29th. How do we know?
-- Because the Dachau International Prisoner’s Committee meeting notes for April 30, 1945 mentioned that SS prisoners will be turned over to "American military authorities as prisoners of war" (see p.450, Concentration Camp Dachau published in 1978 by the Comité International de Dachau, ISBN 3-87490-528-4)

- Because Herbert Marcuse on p. 57 of his book Legacies of Dachau writes about how between May 10th – 14th 1945, the 130 surviving SS troops were used on garbage collection duty, and footnotes the reference with FIVE source documents – the IPC meeting notes for May 9th, the May 11th issue of the inmates newspaper Der Antifaschist, Smith’s book "The Harrowing of Hell", a July 22 Voice of America broadcast and an article in the August 3rd, 1945 edition of the Washington Evening Star

- Because Dr. Marcus J, Smith with the US Displaced Persons Team 115, wrote a book about his experiences rehabilitating the KZ inmates at Dachau called The Harrowing of Hell (University of New Mexico Press, 1972) He mentions SS troops as prisoners multiple times in his book (see p. 120, 132, 157, 158, 172) and specifically cites that they are being housed in the bunker at the southern end of the protective custody compound.

10) We don’t have a clear understanding of how many SS troops were present at the Dachau KZ complex (both the KZ and the troop training ground) on April 29th. Gun guestimated 560 troops guarding the KZ; Red Cross Representative Victor Maurer estimated "a company" (See p 14. In Dachau: 29 April 1945 - estimated by Swiss Cross Representative Victor Maurer (with SS Lt. Wickert present) according the official report by Brig. Gen. Henning Linden, Assistant Commander, US 42nd Infantry Division). A company is 100-150 men. The April 30th SHEAF report mentions 300 SS men. Virtually all accounts of the liberation concur that most of the SS troops at Dachau had abandoned their posts the previous evening, many changing into civilian clothing and escaping into the countryside. We will probably never know how many SS men were at Dachau on April 29th, other than circa 100 were killed and circa 130 were captured.

11) We also don’t have a clear understanding as to what units the SS troops at Dachau on 29th April were from. We do know that Wicker wasn’t a "frontline Waffen-SS" man but was a member of the WVHA and the KZ staff. We do know Lindberger was from the Dachau Troop Training Ground walking wounded replacement company. We do have evidence that at least one of the SS men killed on April 29th was a member of the KZ staff and not a Waffen-SS" trooper (see the KZ collartab and photo that I posted on the last 6-page Dachau thread) We do know that Gun claimed "Skodzensky" was from the LSSAH division, and that other accounts claim the SS troops killed that day were

a) western European,
b) Hungarian volksdeutsche
c)5th SS division
d) 11th SS division,
e) 17th SS division

but in over a year of searching I’ve never been able to find any conclusive proof that the SS troops at Dachau guarding the KZ were from a front line W-SS unit. We have claims that certain cuff titles, edelweiss patches, and cammo uniforms "prove" that they troops were W-SS, but as to attributing them to a specific unit, we have nothing to date.

12) I mention all this to prove that Buechner’s book, so dear to Holocaust deniers and Revisionists like Ernst Zundel, contains multiples of errors and caveats over the alleged massacre of 560 SS troops. Here’s some specific examples from Hour of the Avenger:

- p23 Buechner railed against the "error" that journalists Marguerite Higgins and Peter Furst, travelling with General Linden’s group from the 42nd Infantry Division, were first to enter the KZ. But Higgins and Furst were MOST DEFINITELY among the first US troops to liberate the KZ – we know this from her dispatch, the official reports from the 42nd, the photographs taken during the liberation (which show her standing next to Wicker) and books like Flint Whitlock’s history of the 45th ID, "The Rock of Anzio" Buechner’s attempted to "prove" that the 45th ID liberated the KZ first, but he got his facts wrong.

- P20: Buechner mentioned the 157th SS regiment as "they never met their American counterparts in battle" – you bet they didn’t – no 157th SS Regiment ever existed.

- Beuchner’s book claims "Chief" Jack Bushyhead killed 346 surrendered SS men – even provides a convenient diagram of the execution scene – which happens to be the coal yard – the site of the aforementioned execution of 17 SS men. So apparently we have another massacre occuring at the same spot of a previous massacre, but somehow the 7th Army IG, which began investigating the illegal killings on May 1st, found the original 17 SS corpses in the coal yard but missed the additional 346

- Buechner goes on to describe the .30 cal on the ground, the BAR man etc. – he’s describing "Exhibit C" of the 7th Army’s war crimes report - the photo you posted, which shows the US servicemen tentatively identified in this photo are from left to right: Hammorski(?), Pvt. "Birdeye" Bryant (carrying .30-cal ammo), Cpt. Sedler (standing, glancing left) Pvt. Curtain, (kneeling), PFC John Lee (with BAR). Sparks was there – he stopped the shooting. Lt. Walsh was there, he got relieved of command. Lt. Bushyhead was there – he was later investigated by the 7th Army AG. Everyone else mentioned in the photo was investigated by the IG But Buechner definitely WASN"T THERE – he wasn’t among the first 157th IR troops to enter Dachau. He didn’t show up till 2 hours after the coal yard incident (see Rock of Anzio p 389 and footnote 122) which took place at circa 1400 hours.

Buechner in Chapter IX of his book mentioned how he stopped at Spark’s command post prior to witnessing the massacre – but Sparks didn’t set up his command post till 1635 hours ("Rock of Anzio" p. 384)

- Buechner’s book directly CONTRADICTS his testimony taken on 5th May 1945 by the IGD Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker. Go back to that Boston Globe URL and find the 7th Army IG Report on the mistreatment of SS PWS. Here’s the transcript of his testimony:

Date: 5 May 1945. By: Lt. Col. Joseph M. Whitaker, IGD,

Asst. Inspector General, Seventh Army.

The witness was sworn.

363 Q Please state your name, rank, serial number and organization.

A Howard E. Buchner, 1st Lieutenant, MC, 0-435481, 3rd Bn., 157th Infantry.

(The witness was advised of his rights under the 24th Article of War.)

364 Q Do you remember the taking of the Dachau Concentration Camp?

A Yes, sir.

365 Q Were you the surgeon of the 3rd Battalion, 157th Infantry, at that time?

A Yes, sir.

366 Q Did you see or visit a yard by the power plant where some German soldiers had been shot?

A I did, sir.

367 Q Can you fix the hour at which you saw this?

A Not with certainty, but I would judge about 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.

368 Q Of what day?

A I can't give the exact date.

369 Q Describe to me what you saw when you visited this yard.

A We learned that one of our companies had gone through the camp and that it was something to see out there. So, we got on one of the peeps to visit there and we were detained for some time by the commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, 157th Infantry, because he didn't know whether the place had been cleared. When we got there we saw a quadrangular enclosure, there was a cement wall about ten feet high and inside this enclosure I saw 15 or 16 dead and wounded German soldiers lying along the wall.

370 Q Did you determine which were dead and which were wounded?

A I did not examine any of them, sir, but I saw several of them moving very slightly.

371 Q Did you make any examination to determine whether or not those who were not dead could be saved?

A I did not.

372 Q Was there any guard there?

A There was a soldier standing at the entrance of this yard whom I assumed to be a guard.

373 Q Do you know the soldier or what company he was from?

A No, sir.

374 Q Do you know whether or not any medical attention was called for these wounded German soldiers?

A I do not.


That’s why Buechner was investigated and recommended for courts martial – he saw the original 17 bodies, some apparently not quite dead, and refused to treat them.

Even Buechners’s account of the "346 massacre" in Chapter IX of his book contains disclaimers. He claims that two .30 cal machine guns killed the 346 SS men, but then states

Even though the use of two machine guns have been referred to by several others, I have never been able to confirm the presence of the machine gun on the roof


Note that Lt. Bushyhead was the man supposedly manning this machine gun which may or may not have existed.

Buechner goes on to describe how Lt. Robert Kimsey peeked over the coal yard wall (the wall between Kimsey and the SS troops getting massacred – a rather outrageous thing for a combat veteran to peek his head into the line of fire of 2 machine guns, but whatever) and they says on p. 88

Although his memory of the length of the wall and the number of slain SS guards differ from mine…

—Aw Jeez, Howie, is that so!?! :roll:

- Buechner’s diagram of the wall is suspicious longer than the photos taken by T-4 Mussert indicate. If you want I can draw a diagram to illustrate.

- Buechner’s slain SS tally is an attempt to match Nerin Gun’s number of 560. He takes an estimate of 12 SS guards killed at the coal yard (which he claims were killed by "Birdeye") adds 122 "shot on the spot" (a number taken from Michael Seltzer’s book "Deliverance Day" – a book which is heavily fictionalized and overestimates the number killed at the original coal yard shooting) and then invents the "346" massacre and rounds up with 80 more KIA, by inmates, etc. to get the magic number 560.Buechner makes a point to say that all the SS guards were killed, but this is clearly incorrect, as my points above illustrate. And we can see how the number of SS dead increased through the years through sloppy research.

Tangential to the Dachau story, but perhaps an indication of the historical accuracy of Buechner’s research, is Buechner’s other book "SECRETS OF THE HOLY LANCE"
Described as
"One of the most incredible books on lost treasure, secret societies, ancient relics and WWII ever written. Taking up where The Spear of Destiny by Trevor Ravenscroft leaves off, this book relates that the Holy Lance was secretly taken to a base in Antarctica, while a replica was returned to the Vienna Museum. A book packed with strange information on Nazi bases in Antarctica, Himmler and
the SS, U-boats carrying important Nazis to South America and Hitler's secret treasure."


I am still uncertain as to why Buechner wrote his book – a book which so slanders his comrade Bushyhead "The Avenger" and his division, which frankly, despite the regrettable illegal killings, did a pretty wonderful thing for humanity by liberating Dachau. 100 SS guards were killed and 32,000 people were released from Nazi slavery. It’s too bad that some people want the former to overshadow the significance of the latter.

When a Palestinian finds his family slaughtered by the jewish 'defense' force, and when he loses it it is terrorist. But when an American officer in chare, named Buchyhead (indian decent and a left-winger anti-German) kills together with his murdering comrades 560 unarmed SS men, well that’s just wonderful: Don’t mind! They just 'could not handled the stress'.


This has nothing to do with WWII history but speaks volumes about your passions and worldview about current events.

It's depressing to see.

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Post by David Thompson » 24 Feb 2004 07:44

Thanks, Rob and Caldric, for your helpful and informative posts.

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Post by Caldric » 24 Feb 2004 07:50

As always Rob you have a way of just cutting right through the meat of a subject, thanks for the post.



Image
Alongside the concentration camp (Dachau), 50 box cars sat with over 1500 prisoners who were shipped by train without food from Buchenwald to Dachau. American soldiers find one lone and thankful survivor in a train on the siding outside the Dachau concentration camp. All of the others had perished.
Photo credit: 42nd "Rainbow" Infantry Division : A Combat history of World War II, Lt. Hugh C. Daly, editor, 1946

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Post by Karl » 24 Feb 2004 07:57

Thanks a lot.

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