Zyklon-B & blue colour

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 02 Mar 2004 22:28

Penn44 wrote:
F.N. wrote:
Really? This claim is based on what evidence?
The blue colour is the same that is used on chinese porselain, wich is very old.
How did the Chinese apply the blue on the porcelain and how did the Germans dispense the Zyklon-B?

Penn44

.

Interesting question Penn.

What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 02 Mar 2004 22:28

F.N. -- Please start using the forum search engine before you post a question. This particular subject has been discussed previously on 32 separate threads, the most important of which can be found at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15695
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=4382
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1845

xcalibur -- You said:

What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.

That is interesting. The fact that the Ming dynasty was extinguished in 1644 by the Manchus -- 60 years before the invention of the color -- must not have been a problem.

bonzen · Post by **bonzen** » 02 Mar 2004 23:51

xcalibur wrote: Interesting question Penn.

What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.

Hence the name Prussian Blue. The Chinese probably used calcium copper silicate for their blue which has been around for thousands of years.

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 03 Mar 2004 00:28

David Thompson wrote:
xcalibur -- You said:
What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.
That is interesting. The fact that the Ming dynasty was extinguished in 1644 by the Manchus -- 60 years before the invention of the color -- must not have been a problem.

I forgot to add that it was not widely commercially available until 1724.

happy · Post by **happy** » 03 Mar 2004 01:50

xcalibur wrote:
Penn44 wrote:
F.N. wrote:
Really? This claim is based on what evidence?
The blue colour is the same that is used on chinese porselain, wich is very old.
How did the Chinese apply the blue on the porcelain and how did the Germans dispense the Zyklon-B?

Penn44

.

Interesting question Penn.

What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.

why would the Chinese care when it was invented? Think about it, man used steel for 100's of years before it was invented or understood, they just found a way to make it, and did not understand why or how. it's making was a trade secret. I am not saying what the Chinese used , but just because it wasn't described by a scientist in the western world would not mean it wasn't in use. Maybe if Dreisenbach would have asked the artisans of the Ming dynasty, he would have figured it out 20 years earlier.

xcalibur · Post by **xcalibur** » 03 Mar 2004 02:03

happy wrote:
xcalibur wrote:
Penn44 wrote:
F.N. wrote:
Really? This claim is based on what evidence?
The blue colour is the same that is used on chinese porselain, wich is very old.
How did the Chinese apply the blue on the porcelain and how did the Germans dispense the Zyklon-B?

Penn44

.

Interesting question Penn.

What's also interesting is how the Chinese during the Ming period were using a color that was invented in Berlin by a chap named Dreisenbach in 1704.

why would the Chinese care when it was invented? Think about it, man used steel for 100's of years before it was invented or understood, they just found a way to make it, and did not understand why or how. it's making was a trade secret. I am not saying what the Chinese used , but just because it wasn't described by a scientist in the western world would not mean it wasn't in use. Maybe if Dreisenbach would have asked the artisans of the Ming dynasty, he would have figured it out 20 years earlier.

Okay genius, to keep you "happy" tomorrow I'll amble over to the university museum and ask a Chinese antiquities specialist by what process Chinese artisans made that color. Will that keep you "happy"?

Or maybe instead of me carrying the water on this one you do some research and post some credible evidence to support your questions.

happy · Post by **happy** » 03 Mar 2004 02:26

I said I did not know how the Chinese made blue porcelain, around here blue pottery was made using cobalt. They did not know it was cobalt, they just knew it made a blue glaze that worked on pottery. My point is that just because a western scientist or inventor had not invented something, does not mean the Chinese did not use or understand the use of this chemical. They just knew it made blue porcelain. We are talking about the use of chemicals here, not technology like a jet airplane. This is not rocket science, this is the mixing of a few chemicals in the right manner. maybe the chinese invented it, but the germans never got around to reading the chinese patent files.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 03 Mar 2004 02:27

xcalibur -- You said:

Okay genius

Please avoid personal remarks in posts.

happy -- You said:

We are talking about the use of chemicals here, not technology like a jet airplane. This is not rocket science, this is the mixing of a few chemicals in the right manner. maybe the chinese invented it, but the germans never got around to reading the chinese patent files.

Everyone -- Please post sources for your contentions.

happy · Post by **happy** » 03 Mar 2004 02:46

actually, I just made up the part about the ming dynasty having patent files. you can just ignore that.

bonzen · Post by **bonzen** » 03 Mar 2004 02:50

Cobalt blue:
http://webexhibits.org/pigments/indiv/h ... oblue.html

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 03 Mar 2004 02:52

happy -- You said:

actually, I just made up the part about the ming dynasty having patent files. you can just ignore that.

This is a research section of the forum. Please avoid that sort of thing in future posts.

bonzen -- Thank you for your assistance to our readers. From the article, it appears that the color cobalt blue has nothing to do with cyanide -- the active ingredient in Zyklon B.

happy · Post by **happy** » 03 Mar 2004 02:55

Here is what I found about ming blue.

The production of blue and white wares at the end of the Yuan dynasty (1280-1367) and the beginning of the Ming dynasty (1368-1643) was generally of a poorer quality, possibly due to the shortage of imported cobalt during the period of political instability. In Yung Lo reign (1403-1424), both the potting and glazing techniques improved and wares attained a whiter body and richer blue than those of Yuan dynasty ware. The underglaze blue of the Yung Lo wares and Hsuen Te (1426-1435) wares noted or their rich blue tone.

source
http://www.arttiques.com/about_history.html

so, it looks like the chinese were not using prussian blue.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 03 Mar 2004 02:57

Thank you for the correction, happy.

alf · Post by **alf** » 03 Mar 2004 11:21

For an interesting read on Fred Leuchter's expertise

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-22.html

http://www.holocaust-history.org/leucht ... agreement/

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 05 Mar 2004 02:33

David Thompson wrote:

Pressac explained the presence of blue staining in the disinfestation chambers by saying that, in the disinfestation process, clothes, etc. were exposed to heavy concentrations of the Zyklon b for long periods of time -- 10-16 hours. However, Pressac says, in the homicidal gas chambers the gas only took 10 minutes or so to kill the folks inside, after which time it was pumped out.

The above would only apply to homicidal gas-chambers that had an air-extraction system.

A building that had been designed as a morgue, as for example the large room in Crematorium I, had such a system to remove the decomposition gases emanating from the stored corpses; that is what enabled the conversion of the space to a homicidal gas chamber.

By contrast, neither Bunker I nor Bunker II had such systems. According to the testimony of surviving members of the prisoner Sonderkommando serving those buildings, the homicidal gassings were carried out in the evening. The chambers were left closed all night, containing the bodies of the victims and the HCN-laden air. In the morning the chambers were opened on either side, and the HCN-laden air was vented out by the natural airflow through the building, which took some time.

In other words, the normal methodology for delousing a building or objects had been adapted for homicidal gassing. The walls of the chamber would have been exposed to the HCN for several hours, and presumably would have started to show the blue staining. However, neither of the two buildings survived.

So far as I know, neither Crematorium IV or Crematorium V had air-extraction systems, the gas being removed by natural ventilation, which took some time. So the staining might have started to develop on the inside wall of those buildings.