Poles blamed for wartime massacre

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#31

Post by michael mills » 10 Dec 2010, 07:38

Gross may not have doen his homework well enough.

But so what. The bottom line is this conclusion by Rossino:
It is safe to say, however, that the dynamic of agitation, pogrom, and reprisal would not have developed were not a considerable number of Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians, and Romanians prepared to join in the destruction of Jewish communities. By mid-summer 1941 intense anti-Jewish feeling in Eastern Europe was set to explode in the wake of the Soviet occupation, but in the final analysis it was the SS that struck the match and lit the fuse.
In other words, Rossino is saying that, if the peoples who had experienced Soviet rule, including Poles, had not been ready, willing and able to take revenge on their Jewish neighbours when Soviet rule was overthrown by the Germans, the huge massacre of Jews that occurred under German occupation would not have been possible.

It should be remembered that the first report by Karski to the Polish Government-in-Exile in Angers, in 1940, predicted that the Poles living under Soviet occupation would take a bloody revenge on the Jews for their collaboration with the Soviet oppressors. The events at Jedwabne were an example of that revenge predicted by Karski.

Even earlier, in 1919, the Anglo-Jewish leader, Lucien Wolff, had predicted that if ever Bolshevik rule were overthrown in Russia, there would be a huge pogrom of Jews, the like of which had never been seen before. How right he was.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#32

Post by Artur Szulc » 10 Dec 2010, 09:08

But so what.
?

I wonder, do you apply this "but so what" to other historical claims? But so what if Jan T Gross presents a thesis which he can not back up with sources? So what, yeah, right..
In other words, Rossino is saying that, if the peoples who had experienced Soviet rule, including Poles, had not been ready, willing and able to take revenge on their Jewish neighbours when Soviet rule was overthrown by the Germans, the huge massacre of Jews that occurred under German occupation would not have been possible.
But that is the point, Christian Poles did not involve them selfs in huge massacres of Jews in the summer of 1941.

The Polish-Jewish population of Jedwabne was left unharmed during the first two weeks after the German offensive against the Soviet Union. Poles did punish Soviet collaborators, but only other Christians, Jews was left unharmed. This gives us some indications about the massacre of Jews in Jedwabne.. If you can not acknowledge that, then it is your problem.

And the fact remains, nobody knows or can confirm if Poles involved in the massacre in Jedwabne was forced by the Germans to participate or not. The thesis presented by Gross that the town administration planned the action by them selfs can not be confirmed. The only witness who presents such a chain of events is Waszerstajn and it is confirmed that he could not have been a eyewitness to anything.

Most of our knowledge about the massacre is still speculations. And until new evidence can be presented we should restrain ourselfs from making general conclusions and stick to confirmed facts.
It should be remembered that the first report by Karski to the Polish Government-in-Exile in Angers, in 1940, predicted that the Poles living under Soviet occupation would take a bloody revenge on the Jews for their collaboration with the Soviet oppressors. The events at Jedwabne were an example of that revenge predicted by Karski.
Well, Karskis prediction was wrong. Apart from Wasosz, Radzilow and Jedwabne, Polish historians and others have concluded that Christian Poles was involved in anti-Jewish violence in 22 villages/small towns among thousands in former Polish Easternlands. Most violence against Jews came from Whiterussians and Ukrainians.


jola
Member
Posts: 260
Joined: 15 Nov 2008, 14:02
Location: Warsaw

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#33

Post by jola » 10 Dec 2010, 09:24

michael mills wrote: In other words, Rossino is saying that, if the peoples who had experienced Soviet rule, including Poles, had not been ready, willing and able to take revenge on their Jewish neighbours when Soviet rule was overthrown by the Germans, the huge massacre of Jews that occurred under German occupation would not have been possible.
Are you saying that the Einsatzgruppen were incapable of a mass execution of Jews in Jedwabne if it didn't employ a few Poles to help out? The few Poles were essential for this crime? In sourounding villages the Einsatzgruppen did just fine without any help.

Using your reasoning, the Jews of Warsaw Ghetto would have lived if the willing Jewish Ghetto Police did not round them up and delivered them to the Umslagplatz for the trip to Treblinka. Then you could start a thread "Jews blamed for Treblinka."

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#34

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Dec 2010, 02:12

Number of Jews living in the Soviet occupation zone was much smaller than number of Jews in Nazi-occupied Poland. Most of Holocaust happened on Nazi-occupied areas located west to the Bug, not on Soviet-occupied (until June of 1941) areas located east to the Bug. And also Soviets deported many Polish Jews to the east before 1941.

Which means that Germans were capable of efficiently exterminating Jews also without any help of anti-Soviet (and thus partly also anti-"Judeo-Bolshevik") help. Which, in turn, makes Michael's hypothesis completely wrong.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#35

Post by michael mills » 11 Dec 2010, 05:11

Most of Holocaust happened on Nazi-occupied areas located west to the Bug, not on Soviet-occupied (until June of 1941) areas located east to the Bug.
It began east of the Bug, in the territory that had been under Soviet occupation.

By the end of 1941, a very large number of Jews had been killed east of the Bug, by members of the local population acting in cooperation with the new Soviet occupiers. By contrast, very few had been killed west of the Bug.

The killing of Jews living in the areas of Poland occupied by Germany since 1939, that west of the Bug, did not begin until the very end of 1941, and did not really assume a large scale until the spring of 1942. The killings in the area east of the Bug, conquered from the Soviet occupiers after June 1941, obviously created the precedent for the killings west of the Bug.

And it was not I, but rather Rossino, a person often quoted with favour by Polish members of this forum, who stated the following:
It is safe to say, however, that the dynamic of agitation, pogrom, and reprisal would not have developed were not a considerable number of Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles, Ukrainians, Belorussians, and Romanians prepared to join in the destruction of Jewish communities.
Rossino is quite clearly stating that

1. a considerable number of Poles, as well as of other ethnic groups of the area formerly under Soviet occupation, were prepared to join in the destruction of Jewish communities; and

2. without that preparedness on the part of a considerable number of Poles and others, the "dynamic of agitation, pogrom and reprisal" would not have developed.

it was that "dynamic of agitation, pogrom and reprisal" that provided the precedent for the later massacres of the Jewish minority, first in the areas east of the Bug, then in the areas west of that river. The willingness of the peoples living east of the Bug, including Poles, to kill Jews in revenge for Soviet oppression demonstrated to the new German occupiers that a large-scale massacre of the Jews was possible and would not be resisted by the local inhabitants (in fact would be assisted by them), and may well have encouraged the Germans occupiers to carry it out.

Artur Szulc
Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 21:58
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#36

Post by Artur Szulc » 11 Dec 2010, 15:14

michael mills,
it was that "dynamic of agitation, pogrom and reprisal" that provided the precedent for the later massacres of the Jewish minority, first in the areas east of the Bug, then in the areas west of that river. The willingness of the peoples living east of the Bug, including Poles, to kill Jews in revenge for Soviet oppression demonstrated to the new German occupiers that a large-scale massacre of the Jews was possible and would not be resisted by the local inhabitants (in fact would be assisted by them), and may well have encouraged the Germans occupiers to carry it out.
It does not matter how many times this kind of conclusions are repeated, it still do not make them more true.

The willingness of Christian Poles in killing Jews in Polands former Easternlands can not be generalized on the basis of 25 villages and small towns. Poles lived in thousands of villages and small towns and did not participate in the murders of Jews.

And for me, Rossino, is no authority in this matter. There are historians who are specialized in this area, Rossino is not.

Best regards,

Artur

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#37

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 11 Dec 2010, 16:07

It began east of the Bug, in the territory that had been under Soviet occupation.
It began no later than in 1938 with the Crystal Night pogroms and deportations to death camps.

And this took place not even west of the Bug, but west of the Oder.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#38

Post by michael mills » 12 Dec 2010, 02:44

It began no later than in 1938 with the Crystal Night pogroms and deportations to death camps.
Domen,

Try to improve your historical knowledge.

Deportations to death camps did not commence until 1942.

The events of 9-10 November 1938 were not a massacre, but an organised riot of smashing shopwindows, trashing shops, and setting fire to synagogues. What happened in Germany on that date is in no way comparable with what happened in Jedwabne, where a group of the inhabitants of that village rounded up and killed the local Jews.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#39

Post by michael mills » 12 Dec 2010, 03:09

The willingness of Christian Poles in killing Jews in Polands former Easternlands can not be generalized on the basis of 25 villages and small towns. Poles lived in thousands of villages and small towns and did not participate in the murders of Jews.
All that means is that the German occupiers quickly took control of the massacres of Jews living in the former Polish eastern provinces, with the result that Polish villagers were no longer involved.

We have no way of knowing how far the killing of Jews by Poles on their own initiative would have gone if control of it had not been taken over by the German occupiers, ie if the Germans had simply stood back and allowed Poles and other local people to get on with it.

But the events at Jedwabne and the 24 other villages and small towns indicate that Poles who had lived under Soviet rule were ready, willing and able to take revenge on their Jewish neighbours, and imply what might have happened on a much larger scale if the massacres had not been systematised by the German occupiers.

It is quite clear that offical Polish observers like Karski believed that once Soviet rule in the eastern provinces was overthrown the local Poles would take a bloody revenge on the Jews; there is no indication that the Polish leaders in exile or underground disagreed with that view. Karski also stated that there was a danger that anti-Jewish actions might provide a path to cooperation between the Polish people and their German occupiers, thereby undermining Polish resistance to German rule.

The events at Jedwabne show that Karski was correct in his prediction of a bloody revenge against the Jews. It shows that the bloody revenge began; the only reason why it did not go further than 25 villages and small towns is that the German occupiers did not permit it to, because they did not want the Polish population to act independently.

For the same reason, the Polish-German cooperation on anti-Jewish actions feared by Karski did not eventuate; the German occupiers preferred to keep the anti-Jewish actions entirely under their own control and only involved Poles in a marginal capacity, such as the use of the Blue Police to round up and guard the Jews, and of the local Polish authorities to locate and register the Jewish population and manage Jewish property. The German occupiers simply did not want to leave room for independent action by Polish groups.

It is indeed fortunate for the reputation of the Polish people that the German occupiers took control of the massacres of the Jewish population. The result has been that the Polish people has been able to reap all the benefits of the elimination of the Jewish minority that once lived on their territory, while avoiding any of the responsibility for the inhuman way in which that elimination was effected.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#40

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 12 Dec 2010, 04:21

30,000 Jews were imprisoned in concentration camps during the Crystal Night.

Of them 2,000 died or were murdered in those concentration camps during the next 3 months.

During the pogrom itself around 200 Jews were murdered.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#41

Post by michael mills » 12 Dec 2010, 04:49

Domen,

Your data does not change the historical reality, which is that the large-scale massacre of Jews began in the summer of 1941, and it was targeted at the Jewish population of the territories under Soviet rule, ie east of the Bug.

Previous to that date, there was no large-scale massacre of Jews, and certainly there was never any massacre in Germany itself. The German Jews detained in concentration camps in late 1938 were released after giving an undertaking to leave Germany permanently.
The SA shattered the storefronts of about 7500 Jewish stores and businesses, hence the appellation Kristallnacht (Crystal Night)[24]. Jewish homes were ransacked all throughout Germany. Although violence against Jews had not been explicitly condoned by the authorities, there were cases of Jews being beaten or assaulted.

This pogrom damaged, and in many cases destroyed, about 200 synagogues (constituting nearly all Germany had), many Jewish cemeteries, more than 7,000 Jewish shops, and 29 department stores. Some Jews were beaten to death while others were forced to watch. More than 30,000 Jewish men were arrested and taken to concentration camps; primarily Dachau, Buchenwald, and Sachsenhausen.[25] The treatment of prisoners in the camps was brutal, but most were released during the following three months on condition that they leave Germany.

The number of German Jews killed is uncertain. The number killed in the two-day riot is most often cited as 91. In addition, it is thought that there were hundreds of suicides. Counting deaths in the concentration camps, around 2,000-2,500 deaths were directly or indirectly attributable to the Kristallnacht pogrom. A few non-Jewish Germans, mistaken for Jews, were also killed[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

In summary, the riot of 9-10 November 1938 was not in any sense part of an organised program of mass-destruction of human life. Rather, it was an attempt to accelerate the emigration of Jews from Germany by terrorising them.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Poles blamed for wartime massacre (duplicate)

#42

Post by michael mills » 12 Dec 2010, 05:17

(3) Reinhard Heydrich, instructions for measures against Jews (10th November, 1938)

Following the attempt on the life of Secretary of the Legation von Rath in Paris, demonstrations against the Jews are to be expected in all parts of the Reich in the course of the coming night, November 9/10,1938. The instructions below are to be applied in dealing with these events:

I. The chiefs of the State Police, or their deputies, must immediately upon receipt of this telegram contact, by telephone, the political leaders in their areas - Gauleiter or Kreisleiter - who have jurisdiction in their districts and arrange a joint meeting with the inspector or commander of the Order Police to discuss the arrangements for the demonstrations. At these discussions the political leaders will be informed that the German Police has received instructions, detailed below, from the Reichsfiihrer SS and the chief of the German Police, with which the political leadership is requested to coordinate its own measures:

(a) Only such measures are to be taken as do not endanger German lives or property (i.e., synagogues are to be burnt down only where there is no danger of fire in neighboring buildings).

(b) Places of business and apartments belonging to Jews may be destroyed but not looted. The police are instructed to supervise the observance of this order and to arrest looters.

(c) In commercial streets particular care is to be taken that non-Jewish businesses are completely protected against damage.

(d) Foreign citizens - even if they are Jews - are not to be molested.

II. On the assumption that the guidelines are observed, the demonstrations are not to be prevented by the police, who are only to supervise the observance of the guidelines.

III. On receipt of this telegram, police will seize all archives to be found in all synagogues and offices of the Jewish communities so as to prevent their destruction during the demonstrations. This refers only to material
of historical value, not to contemporary tax records, etc. The archives are to be handed over to the locally responsible officers of the SD.

IV. The control of the measures of the Security Police concerning the demonstrations against the Jews is vested in the organs of the State Police, unless inspectors of the Security Police have given their own instructions. Officials of the Criminal Police, members of the SD, of the Reserves and the SS in general may be used to carry out the measures taken by the Security Police.

V. As soon as the course of events during the night permits the release of the officials required, as many Jews in all districts, especially the rich, as can be accommodated in existing prisons are to be arrested. For the time being only healthy male Jews, who are not too old, are to be detained. After the detentions have been carried out the appropriate concentration camps are to be contracted immediately for the prompt accommodation of the Jews in the camps. Special care is to be taken that the Jews arrested in accordance with these instructions are not ill-treated.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERcrystal.htm

Note in particular the final sentence.

Heydrich's instruction that Jews were not to be ill-treated stands in stark contrast to his orders issued at the beginning of Barbarossa, which explicitly called for the execution of Jews in State and Party positions and in the Red Army.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#43

Post by David Thompson » 12 Dec 2010, 05:23

The topic is the Jedwabne massacre. Let's get back on it.

User avatar
ToKu
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: 25 Jan 2006, 11:03
Location: Olsztyn, former Allenstein,Warmia (Ermland), Poland

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#44

Post by ToKu » 12 Dec 2010, 11:31

Michael Mills wrote: "It is indeed fortunate for the reputation of the Polish people that the German occupiers took control of the massacres of the Jewish population. The result has been that the Polish people has been able to reap all the benefits of the elimination of the Jewish minority that once lived on their territory, while avoiding any of the responsibility for the inhuman way in which that elimination was effected."

I can not agree wit the assumption that Poles as a whole benefited from elimination of Jews. Many arguments for and against this assumption were given here:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=138078

Anyway I just must point out that IMO the loss of roughly 10% of citizens, including around half of its doctors and lawyers can't be beneficial to a country and therefore to the rest of its population.

Moreover, it should be obvious to anybody, that without German agression of 1939 and conditions created as a result of criminal occupation politics no massacres would ever occur.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: Poles blamed for wartime massacre

#45

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 12 Dec 2010, 12:07

So there was no strict anti-jewisch policy during the sanacja-regime?

No intentions to get "rid of the jews"?

Jan-Hendrik

Locked

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”