Warcrimes of the "Wiking" Division

[Omega-Force]

..

[Karl]

I gather that oleg agrees that his original quote at the start of this thread is useless in regards to the topic at hand because he has not addressed the question of what division actually perpetrated the hospital crime.

Good.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

I gather that oleg agrees that his original quote at the start of this thread is useless in regards to the topic at hand because he has not addressed the question of what division actually perpetrated the hospital crime.

Good.

author of the quote specifically stated that his unit fased Wiking - I' d say it is there is a good chnace that it is wicking that did crime in question.

[Karl]

I think hospital crimes like this are particularly heinous, hence my questioning this point.

I looked up the two places -Merefa and Taranovka- in my atlas (quite outdated –1950’s- and in German) and couldn’t find them. Are they close or far apart?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Red circle -merefa
black circle - taranovka commuter train which makes every stop possible on the way gets there in an hour and 10 mnutes.

[WalterS]

Colonel SteelFist wrote:

The Waffen-SS was NOT a bunch of black-uniformed Aryans who ran around mopping up resistance with force and committing warcrimes

Yes they were. Not only that, they were a criminal organization, designed specifically to further the cause of National Socialism and were thoroughly complicit in the murder of POWs, civilians, and the wanton destruction of cities and towns not justified by military necessity.

[Jeremy Chan]

Before I'm pounced on the tail and get branded an SS-worshipper, I'd like to say that I don't revere the the SS or its actions!

Of all SS-divisions, especially for one of the elite SS-Panzer or PanzerGrenadier divisions, the 5th SS-PanzerDiv."Wiking" did NOT commit a single warcrime, and ended the war marching into tough Soviet captivity slate clean. But it was committed in the latter war fighting tough, defensive rearguard actions, giving the Soviet opponents a bloody nose. No warcimes committed! This is even more remarkable as it wasn't even significantly composed of Germans.

Colonel SteelFist -- This is a research area of the forum. If you have an opinion you want to post, please include the evidence which produced the opinion.

David, I believe what I've posted was the truth and nothing but the truth. You want sources? Fine. They were: http://www.wssob.com, http://www.eliteforces.freewire.co.uk, The Black Angels by Rupert Butler, and Rupert Butler - SS-Wiking: The History of the Fifth SS Division 1941 - 1945.

the 2.SS.PzDiv ,,Das Reich", 9th SS-Panzer Division "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS-Panzer Division Frundsberg were pretty much the only divisions of the Waffen-SS who abstained from any atrocities throughout, slate almost clean.

So Oradur-sur-Glane was an error on the "esteemed" 2nd SS? A "tragic mistake" ?

Many of the volksdeutsche freiwillinge units of the Waffen-SS have stained the overall reputation of what has been doubtedly the best army of WW2.

Sometimes (please forgive me Mr. Thompson and Mr. Worst) I really, REALLY, REALLY think that Mr. Worst's caustic tongue (at times ) ought to fall on statements such as these. :roll:

Of course, the Totenkopf divison was responsible for almost equally disgusting atrocities.

As were the 1st, 2nd, 5th and many other units of the Waffen SS.

John W, I don't believe you had to be so hard on me.

Colonel SteelFist wrote:

The Waffen-SS was NOT a bunch of black-uniformed Aryans who ran around mopping up resistance with force and committing warcrimes

Yes they were. Not only that, they were a criminal organization, designed specifically to further the cause of National Socialism and were thoroughly complicit in the murder of POWs, civilians, and the wanton destruction of cities and towns not justified by military necessity.

Oh, are you that surprised?? All armies commit warcrimes,whatever their nature, but acceptable to say that in scope and official sanction, the Waffen-SS just tipped the line a bit. And it's more likely the trigge-happy Hitlerjugend graduate who did it, caught up in the heat of battle, than the altschule SS-NCO who'd previously served 15 years in the Heer.

[Konstan]

the 2.SS.PzDiv ,,Das Reich", 9th SS-Panzer Division "Hohenstaufen" and the 10th SS-Panzer Division Frundsberg were pretty much the only divisions of the Waffen-SS who abstained from any atrocities throughout, slate almost clean.

So Oradur-sur-Glane was an error on the "esteemed" 2nd SS? A "tragic mistake" ?

I don't believe that anyone is trying to say these divisions commited no warcrimes. But, compared to SSTK or Dirlewanger, Wiking had a very clean record.
There is no doubt that Finns within Wiking had an incredible amount of animosity for the Soviets. And unfortunately displayed it with violence(certainly during the early stages of Barbarossa).Although, I don't agree that this was the norm.

[Juha Hujanen]

There is no doubt that Finns within Wiking had an incredible amount of animosity for the Soviets. And unfortunately displayed it with violence(certainly during the early stages of Barbarossa).Although, I don't agree that this was the norm.

Would you give sources to that claim?

Jokipii is his book didn't find any claims that Finnish volunteers took part to atrocities.Nor there were claims of that sort after the war.

It looks like most shootings of POW's and atrocities against civilians by Wiking took place at start of Barbarossa.After Wiking matured with military qualities,much less warcrimes took place.

/Juha

[Rob - wssob2]

Col. SteelFist, I'm confused how you can believe

Of all SS-divisions, especially for one of the elite SS-Panzer or PanzerGrenadier divisions, the 5th SS-PanzerDiv."Wiking" did NOT commit a single warcrime

When confronted with

The execution of Jews by members of the 5th SS supply train in retaliation for the death of Wackerle may have been one of those
"spontaneous" mass murders that Himmler frowned upon. However, it seems increasingly likely
that troops of the 5th SS division did assist members of Einsatzkommando 4b in their murderous operations
in Galicia during the month July 1941. It also seems likely that troops of the 5th SS division did their part
in carrying out Hitler's "Commissar Order" by killing people suspected of being Jewish or suspected of being
Communist without due process.

The latter actions - which are quite clearly war crimes - being supported by at least 4 books, 1 war crime trial and 2 Einstazgruppen report. (BTW Caldric - thanks for posting your collaborating material)

"Angel of Death" Mengele was also a member of the "Wiking" division prior to his assignment at Auschwicz. Wiking battalion commander Wackerle was the first commandant of Dachau KZ and was relieved due to excess brutality and replaced with "Papa" Eicke by Himmler after the embarrassing investigation by Munich Chief Public Prosecutor Wintersberger. Given all this, (and there's much more if you dig deeper) it seems that the "clean" reputation of the "Wiking" division is a bit of a whitewash.

[michael mills]

Rob-WSSOB wrote:

"Angel of Death" Mengele was also a member of the "Wiking" division prior to his assignment at Auschwicz.

That would only be relevant if Mengele had committed warcrimes while a member of that unit.

If Rob-WSSOB has any evidence of such crimes committed by Mengele at the front; he is invited to post it. Otherwise he should retract the sentence as irrelevant to his point.

Everything that I have read about Mengele suggests that while at the front with SS Division "Wiking" he carried out normal military medical duties. He was awarded the Iron Cross for his bravery in rescuing some wounded soldiers from a burning tank, and was ruled unfit for frontline duty after being wounded.

[Rob - wssob2]

I mention Mengele and Wackerle as former members of the Wiking whose careers, either before or after their tenure in the division, are textbook examples of the brutality of the Third Reich.

Wackerle, as an "old fighter" Nazi and a battalion commander in the division, illustrates a connection between violent and feverent believers of National Socialism and the unit command structure - a connection that has been downplayed by Steiner (incidently, NDSAP #253351) and other historians of the unit who have deliberately attempted to portay the unit as "pan-European anti-Bolshevist" as opposed to Nazi.

Mengele's career as a surgeon for a frontline W-SS unit is not well known, nor well-publicized by most W-SS historians. According to Gerald Posner's biography, Mengele was very proud of his W-SS service and his front-line decorations, even if his former comrades tried to erase his name from the division's roll of veterans. Mengele is a) an example of the interconnections between the KZ system and the W-SS and b) arguably, the most (in)famous former member of the division. Both points are historically interesting.

[TH Albright]

Other "Wiking" officer alumini with connections to the wartime KZ system;;

Anton Streitwieser..Wounded, Regiment "Westland" 1941-42 EKII; served at KL Mauthausen as Rapportfuherer at KL Musthausen-Gusen 1938-1941, Schutzhaftlagerfuhrer at KL Mauthausen 1942-44 and Kommandant of Melk sub camp 1944-45..he served in "Wiking" between these assignments.

Alois Kurz ..Guard Company commander at KL Majdanek 1942-44; regiment "Westland" 1940-41

Willi Rinck...admin. officer KL Neuengamme 1940-42; IVa: II Btl/Regiment "Westland" & Wirschaft Btl 5 1942-43..

Theodor Lange..guard company commander KL Auschwitz 1943-44; regiment "Nordland" 1941-42

A short list, but noteworthy of the at least nominal connections between "Wiking" and the wartime KL system

[David Thompson]

Askold -- The topic of this thread is war crimes and the SS "Wiking" Division. Stay on it.

[michael mills]

Rob-WSSOB wrote:

Mengele's career as a surgeon for a frontline W-SS unit is not well known, nor well-publicized by most W-SS historians. According to Gerald Posner's biography, Mengele was very proud of his W-SS service and his front-line decorations, even if his former comrades tried to erase his name from the division's roll of veterans. Mengele is a) an example of the interconnections between the KZ system and the W-SS and b) arguably, the most (in)famous former member of the division. Both points are historically interesting.

Rob,

You are missing the point.

Mengele's crimes were all committed AFTER his frontline service with "Wiking". In fact, after he was posted home unfit for frontline duty at the end of 1941, there was quite an interval until his arrival at Auschwitz in May 1943. During that time he was making anthropological assessments of Poles who were claiming the status of Ethnic German.

Furthermore, the crimes he committed at Auschwitz were either part of an anthropological research program he was undertaking on behalf of his mentor Otmar von Verschuer, or else related to the normal functions of a camp doctor such as selecting the sick for killing. They had no connection to the frontline actions of "Wiking".

Accordingly, there is no relationship whatever between Mengele's crimes and the "Wiking" division. The fact that Mengele had earlier served in that unit is irrelevant. And there is no evidence whatever that he had committed any act that could be reasonably termed criminal while serving with "Wiking".

It is the equivalent of claiming that the unit of the US Army to which Timothy McVeigh belonged during the Gulf War was a criminal unit consisting of terrorists because he later, in a different environment and after leaving that unit, committed an act of terrorism involving mass-murder.

If you want to contest the claim that "Wiking" was a "clean" unit that did not commit atrocities (and it may well be a contestable claim), you have to show that members of the unit committed atrocities as part of the operations of the unit, and while they were members of it.

It is not enough to show that certain members of "Wiking" served at concentration camps before or after their frontline service with "Wiking". It is a well-known fact that members of the Waffen-SS were often transferred between frontline service and service with the guard companies at concentration camps (and extremely rarely to positions on camp staffs).

You seem to be making the assumption that if a member of "Wiking" was at one time a member of a concentration camp guard company, he must have

1. committed crimes while a member of the guard company; and

2. continued to commit crimes while serving at the front with "Wiking".

Both assumptions are unwarranted.