Warcrimes of the "Wiking" Division

[JariL]

There is one important aspect that Jokipii mentions but which has not been mentioned here. The Finnish soldiers who Jokipii uses as a source in his book tell that the "whole German army" went mad in what he calls the "Jewish area" (Eastern parts of Poland and Western parts of Russia). There is for example a descriptions on how Jews (and probably other people as well) were shot at random from lorries carrying German troops. There are descriptions of massacres that Juha was referring to at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... light=lvov. But Jokipii also mantions that order was restored to Wiking division and it was never allowed to slip.

What comes to animosity towards Russians, we can assume that many of the Finnish volunteers felt that way. But it is too straight forward to conclude that they were cruel towards Russians based on this. The historical evidence that we have, war time letters home and diaries that among other things, describe the massacres, suffering of the civilians etc., seem to indicate the contrary. Many of the Finns also came from the area lost in the Winter War and had first hand experince in what it was like to be driven out from your home. These own experiences could of course turn into hatred but they could also turn into sympathy.

It should also be remembered that the bulk of Finns were not along in the first phase of operation Barbarossa but joined the division later on. The men who witnessed the atrocities were spread among Germans in the division. Later on Finns formed their own battalion.

What comes to Finns participating into the atrocities Jokipii says that he has not encountered any evidence to support this. He also says that if it happened, the perpetrators were probably killed in the front and the information diappeared with them. The latter is based on the internal quarrels of the Finnish SS men after the war, when the hostile factions slandered each other the best they could. Even then no accusations were made about participation in Holocaust or about attrocities against civilians.

Best regards,


Jari

[David Thompson]

The posts on the pre-war NKVD now have a thread of their own at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45550

[JRG]

Was the Division responsible for any other documented atrocities after 1941?

[Georg_S]

that troops of the 5th SS division did assist members of Einsatzkommando 4b in their murderous operations in Galicia during the month July 1941. It also seems likely that troops of the 5th SS division did their part
in carrying out Hitler's "Commissar Order" by killing people suspected of being Jewish or suspected of being Communist without due process.

"Angel of Death" Mengele was also a member of the "Wiking" division prior to his assignment at Auschwicz. Wiking battalion commander Wackerle was the first commandant of Dachau KZ and was relieved due to excess brutality and replaced with "Papa" Eicke by Himmler after the embarrassing investigation by Munich Chief Public Prosecutor Wintersberger. Given all this, (and there's much more if you dig deeper) it seems that the "clean" reputation of the "Wiking" division is a bit of a whitewash.

Hi Rob, I know in our discussions about warcrimes and who did what, you always have been a keen believer of "Show me proof", which makes me stunned to se remark from you such as "likely" in a discussion about the 5.SS-Pz.Div. "Wiking". Wiking was one of the SS-Division which was decleared as "clean" Military units by the Allied.

To briing up Mengele in this duscussion is a long shot what he did in SS-Pi.Abt.5 as it´s doctor has nothing to do with KL Auschwitz in which he served after he was wounded in Action. And if you read the history of Mengele (Posner) you will get a clear point of view why Mengele entered KL Service. I think even Wäckerle is a long shot, he was Kdt. of KL Dachau for a very short while, before he was removed by RFSS from Dachau. (Spring 1933).

Even if some mebers of the 5.SS-Pz.Div. "wiking" surely comitted minor warcrimes, there is no proof that the participated in major warcrimes such as Einsatzgruppen or similiar as unit. But then you have singele members of the Division who either before or after there service in 5.SS-Pz.Div. "Wiking" did has nothing to do with "Wiking" as unit. Better examples then Mengele and Wäckerle is in my point of view Otto Förschner (Buchenwald, Dora Auss.L Kaufering) Artur Rödl (unsure if he really served in 5.SS-Pz.Div at all).

Best regards,

Georg

[Rob - wssob2]

Hitler's Swedes by Lars Larsson includes an interrogation (circa December 1943) of Waffen-SS volunteer Kurt Lundin, a former soldier in the Wiking Division:

“...During the campaign, however, he had second thoughts regarding Naziism, which in his meaning (?) did not in reality correspond to the theoretical ideal and disseminated propaganda. This was especially true after he participated in the occupation of Husiantyn in Russia. In the town hall basement, the German troops found approximately 8,000 mutilated corpses of former kulaks/independent farmers and those who might possibly greet the invaders with joy and join the Germans. The Company to which Lundin belonged had been instructed to clear the city of partisans. Another Waffen-SS company started gathering people in the town hall basement to be executed before his company’s arrival. Most were Jews. All were commander to carry out the mutilated bodies and bury them. There Lundin encountered an old Jew who could not bear to carry the corpses. An SS man forced him to lie down among the bodies, after which the Jew was shot with a bullet to the neck. The burial parties were then forced to dig their own graves; some were shot with a bullet to the neck at the grave. Others were forced to stand and be beaten to death with rifle butts. Some were forced to kill each other with the promise that the survivor would be spared. These, however, were also shot.

Throughout the campaign experience, the Division Viking [sic], to which he himself belonged, took no prisoners and killed everyone and everything that came within the Division’s path; as a result, officers and men, who during reconnaissance missions had been captured, had been found dead and mutilated. Captain Bredemeyer had been found dead with his eyes gouged and ears, tongue and genitals cut off and stuffed into his mouth. These deeds outraged the Division’s soldiers. This is why no prisoners were taken for several months.”

[seaburn]

Interesting. Who carried out this interrogation Rob and what was the document reference in the citations ?

[dshaday]

Hi

Interesting. Who carried out this interrogation Rob and what was the document reference in the citations ?

This is a good question.

There is a reference in an online Holocaust article that Lars Lundin served from 1941 -43 (when discharged) with the Waffen SS. On Christmas eve 1943 he was interviewed by Swedish police (maybe because he had become an officer in the Waffen SS and was of special interest?). Lundin recalled both what he had heard from others and scenes he had witnessed himself. He refers to witnessing the killing of hundreds of Jew (the Internet article does not say which unit did the killings that Lundin witnessed). He is apparently quoted in a published reference by Schön, B., "Där järnkorsen växer" (Stockholm, 2001).

I suspect that the Rob's extract is probably from the Swedish police interview. It may explain the writing style. Rob will need to confirm.

Dennis

[dshaday]

Hi

Hitler's Swedes by Lars Larsson includes an interrogation (circa December 1943) of Waffen-SS volunteer Kurt Lundin, a former soldier in the Wiking Division:

“...During the campaign, however, he had second thoughts regarding Naziism, which in his meaning (?) did not in reality correspond to the theoretical ideal and disseminated propaganda. This was especially true after he participated in the occupation of Husiantyn in Russia. In the town hall basement, the German troops found approximately 8,000 mutilated corpses of former kulaks/independent farmers and those who might possibly greet the invaders with joy and join the Germans. The Company to which Lundin belonged had been instructed to clear the city of partisans. Another Waffen-SS company started gathering people in the town hall basement to be executed before his company’s arrival. Most were Jews. All were commander to carry out the mutilated bodies and bury them. There Lundin encountered an old Jew who could not bear to carry the corpses. An SS man forced him to lie down among the bodies, after which the Jew was shot with a bullet to the neck. The burial parties were then forced to dig their own graves; some were shot with a bullet to the neck at the grave. Others were forced to stand and be beaten to death with rifle butts. Some were forced to kill each other with the promise that the survivor would be spared. These, however, were also shot.

This is a detailed and sad account of a war crime. However there is no indication that Wiking Div took part. It only shows that elements of the unit were there.

Throughout the campaign experience, the Division Viking [sic], to which he himself belonged, took no prisoners and killed everyone and everything that came within the Division’s path; as a result, officers and men, who during reconnaissance missions had been captured, had been found dead and mutilated. Captain Bredemeyer had been found dead with his eyes gouged and ears, tongue and genitals cut off and stuffed into his mouth. These deeds outraged the Division’s soldiers. This is why no prisoners were taken for several months.”

Strictly speaking, the writing style does not clearly tell us if the killings by Wiking were actually seen by Lundin, or is something he heard about while with the unit. While not a smoking-gun proof, it probably happened.

Dennis

[Rob - wssob2]

Interesting. Who carried out this interrogation Rob and what was the document reference in the citations ?

Author Lars Larsson refers to "Swedish authorities" - note that Swedish Security Police seem to have interrogated every Swedish Waffen-SS veteran upon their return to Sweden both during and after the war. The document reference is P3895 of the Swedish Royal Archives. See Hitler's Swedes, pp.69-70 and footnotes 194-96.

Wiki article on the village of Husiatyn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husiatyn

Yad Vashem photos of Husiatyn
http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 17863.html

International Jewish Cemetery project
http://www.iajgsjewishcemeteryproject.o ... yatin.html

Museum for the History of Polish Jews information on the village:
http://www.sztetl.org.pl/ru/article/hus ... iew&page=1

P.106 of Omer Bartov's excellent Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-Day Ukraine has a brief synopsis of Husiatyn's tragedy.

This is a detailed and sad account of a war crime. However there is no indication that Wiking Div took part. It only shows that elements of the unit were there.

Strictly speaking, the writing style does not clearly tell us if the killings by Wiking were actually seen by Lundin, or is something he heard about while with the unit. While not a smoking-gun proof, it probably happened.

It did. The Wiking Division's warcrimes have been recently documented in the chapter Verbrechen der Waffen-SS Division „Wiking“ in Kai Struve's recent book Deutsche Herrschaft, ukrainischer Nationalismus, antijüdische Gewalt (German Rule, Ukrainian Nationalism, and Anti-Semitic Violence: The Summer of 1941 in Western Ukraine)
See http://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/428721

Kai Struve is a German historian and a 2006 Fellow at the USHMM
http://www.ushmm.org/research/competiti ... truve-2006

Over the past 7 years or so the amount of war crime evidence against the Wiking Division during the opening phases of Operation Barbarossa has been piling up.

[dshaday]

Hi

Hitler's Swedes by Lars Larsson includes an interrogation (circa December 1943) of Waffen-SS volunteer Kurt Lundin, a former soldier in the Wiking Division:

“...During the campaign, however, he had second thoughts regarding Naziism, which in his meaning (?) did not in reality correspond to the theoretical ideal and disseminated propaganda. This was especially true after he participated in the occupation of Husiantyn in Russia. In the town hall basement, the German troops found approximately 8,000 mutilated corpses of former kulaks/independent farmers and those who might possibly greet the invaders with joy and join the Germans. The Company to which Lundin belonged had been instructed to clear the city of partisans. Another Waffen-SS company started gathering people in the town hall basement to be executed before his company’s arrival. Most were Jews. All were commander to carry out the mutilated bodies and bury them. There Lundin encountered an old Jew who could not bear to carry the corpses. An SS man forced him to lie down among the bodies, after which the Jew was shot with a bullet to the neck. The burial parties were then forced to dig their own graves; some were shot with a bullet to the neck at the grave. Others were forced to stand and be beaten to death with rifle butts. Some were forced to kill each other with the promise that the survivor would be spared. These, however, were also shot.

Throughout the campaign experience, the Division Viking [sic], to which he himself belonged, took no prisoners and killed everyone and everything that came within the Division’s path; as a result, officers and men, who during reconnaissance missions had been captured, had been found dead and mutilated. Captain Bredemeyer had been found dead with his eyes gouged and ears, tongue and genitals cut off and stuffed into his mouth. These deeds outraged the Division’s soldiers. This is why no prisoners were taken for several months.”

Looks like the author of the book is of the opinion that some or all of this information from Lundin comes from what he heard rather than what he witnessed.

See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&start=15

"Another interesting person is Kurt Lundin, who was trained with Borg and Linnér and served in 15./Westland: in 1943 he told the police about war crimes committed by the Wiking division during the opening stages of Barbarossa. It is however evident that this must have been matters which were spoken about, and not something which he had witnessed himself (even if he claimed so)."

The occupation of Husiantyn in Russia occurred 6 July1941. Since Lundin is supposed to have joined Wiking in August 1941 all the comment about Husintyn are from what he has heard. Even though he claimed to have been there and saw at least one execution up close.

Dennis

Added date for Husiantyn massacre.
Added new information about when Lundin joined Wiking.

[dshaday]

Hi

Wiki article on the village of Husiatyn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husiatyn

Yad Vashem photos of Husiatyn
http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... 17863.html

International Jewish Cemetery project
http://www.iajgsjewishcemeteryproject.o ... yatin.html

Museum for the History of Polish Jews information on the village:
http://www.sztetl.org.pl/ru/article/hus ... iew&page=1

P.106 of Omer Bartov's excellent Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-Day Ukraine has a brief synopsis of Husiatyn's tragedy.

The web links you give say nothing about Wiking Division or the SS. Page 106 of Batov's book also says nothing about Wiking or the SS. I do not understand why you are padding out your post with them?

The Wiking Division's warcrimes have been recently documented in the chapter Verbrechen der Waffen-SS Division „Wiking“ in Kai Struve's recent book Deutsche Herrschaft, ukrainischer Nationalismus, antijüdische Gewalt (German Rule, Ukrainian Nationalism, and Anti-Semitic Violence: The Summer of 1941 in Western Ukraine)
See http://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/428721

Since I don't read German with any proficiency, and this is an English language forum, how about you give us a rundown of the highlights of this chapter so we know what type of proof has been used ? Assuming of course that you have read the chapter?

Dennis

[Rob - wssob2]

The web links you give say nothing about Wiking Division or the SS. Page 106 of Batov's book also says nothing about Wiking or the SS. I do not understand why you are padding out your post with them?

It's not padding, it's context.

This was once a vibrant Jewish community, grievously damaged during WWI and essentially wiped out in July 1941. It's important for us to recognize that.

One thing that is very interesting is if you document all the Ukrainian villages on the Wiking route of advance during the summer of 1941 from Waffen-SS books and then cross-reference them with Holocaust historical material about the opening phases of Barbarossa- you see the same place name crop up.

Typically in Holocaust survivor accounts from the 1941 Ukraine you only see mention of "German soldiers" and "Ukrainian nationalists" - which of course makes sense as you're not likely to ask what unit your executioner is from as he lines up up against the wall

("Excuse me, would you happen to be from the 15th Company of the SS Westland Regiment?")

Since I don't read German with any proficiency, and this is an English language forum, how about you give us a rundown of the highlights of this chapter so we know what type of proof has been used ? Assuming of course that you have read the chapter?

I haven't read the chapter yet. I was hoping we could break our pattern of I provide research/you provide commentary - perhaps you could do a little research on your end?

so we know what type of proof has been used

Are you implying that Kai Struve's research is sub-par? I guess the USHMM will let anybody in the door.

Interestingly enough, Husiatyn isn't the only Ukrainian village where the Wiking Division is implicated in genocide during July 1941 - see

Wiking, Einsatzgruppe C & the Bloodbath at Zloczow (Zolochiv) Summer 1941
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=147435

Husiatyn and Zolochiv are about 146km apart.

Brief biographical information on Westland Regiment's Capt. Biedermeier can be found at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=177815

He was apparently killed, possible after capture, on July 18, 1941.

If what Lundin claims is correct ("...This is why no prisoners were taken for several months.”) then it is entirely possible he engaged in the execution of prisoners upon his arrival in country on August 1941.

[dshaday]

Hi

One thing that is very interesting is if you document all the Ukrainian villages on the Wiking route of advance during the summer of 1941 from Waffen-SS books and then cross-reference them with Holocaust historical material about the opening phases of Barbarossa- you see the same place name crop up.

I hope you are not trying to say that Wiking was the only unit that could have committed atrocities in all these Ukranian villages? That would be a big claim/exaggeration?

I was hoping we could break our pattern of I provide research/you provide commentary - perhaps you could do a little research on your end?

That's odd. I see a different pattern.
You make dubious claims/exaggerations or provide raw quotes without context, and I do some research and point out the issues with your conclusions. Lundin's statements are only one example (another example - the raw comments you posted in the "Swedish Military Attaché Report on Waffen-SS" thread and your interpretations/exaggerations of them).

Are you implying that Kai Struve's research is sub-par? I guess the USHMM will let anybody in the door.

Why would I make any such comment? I cannot even read his work.

Since you referenced his work as proof of your point of view, I presumed you had read it. The forum encourages posters to give a cut and paste or resume of material quoted as reference -which is why I asked. As it turns out, you are obviously OK using a book that you have not read (and cannot comment on its style, content or validity) as a source.

If what Lundin claims is correct ("...This is why no prisoners were taken for several months.”) then it is entirely possible he engaged in the execution of prisoners upon his arrival in country on August 1941.

If you recall, I previously said that this claim by Lundin is no smoking gun, but probably happened.
It is also possible that Lundin did not himself execute POWs, but is repeating what he heard others had done. He has already lied once in this police interview.

Dennis

[Rob - wssob2]

I hope you are not trying to say that Wiking was the only unit that could have committed atrocities in all these Ukranian villages? That would be a big claim/exaggeration?

No, that would be a semantic and likely deliberate - misinterpretation.

What I am pointing out is this: Some unit had to commit genocidal acts in these towns. It stands to reason that there is a greater chance of the acts being committed by units that are historically documented to have been in those towns.

Many Waffen-SS fanbois really take umbrage over the thought that the Wiking Division could have committed war crimes.

You make dubious claims

Which claims?

exaggerations or provide raw quotes without context

Do you think that the Holocaust in the Ukraine is exaggerated? Or just the Wiking Division’s role in genocide?

provide raw quotes without context

Links to the history of a Jewish community bother you?

Since you referenced his work as proof of your point of view, I presumed you had read it.

And you presumed incorrectly. I wrote … The Wiking Division's warcrimes have been recently documented
- no first person reference in that sentence!

As it turns out, you are obviously OK using a book that you have not read (and cannot comment on its style, content or validity) as a source.

Yes I am OK mentioning that a German Holocaust scholar and former USHMM visiting fellow has published a book on the Wiking Division’s warcrimes.

So you believe that Kai Struve is an invalid scholar and/or perhaps the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is a subpar institution. Why do you think such an author would get their facts wrong about the Wiking Division’s warcrimes?

Lots of AHF posters experience cognitive dissonance when confronted with Waffen-SS warcrimes, especially ones committed by such “glamorous" units as the Wiking division, getting very testy and defensive.

[dshaday]

Hi Rob

What I am pointing out is this: Some unit had to commit genocidal acts in these towns. It stands to reason that there is a greater chance of the acts being committed by units that are historically documented to have been in those towns.

Your original post claimed a clear correlation of all known war crimes in a specific part of Galizia to Wiking having been in those same locations. This is the exaggeration I am obviously refering to. I disagree with this exaggerated claim. There is no "semantic and likely deliberate - misinterpretation" of your post. What you now post (as above) has a different meaning altogether.

As for the rest of your last post, you are taking much of what I posted out of context and twisting it's obvious meaning. In fact, it is you who are bogging them down in deliberate misinterpretations.

As you know, the "dubious claims" I mentioned refers to the "pattern" of posts you brought up (between you and me over the last year or so). Same with the exaggerations and raw quotes without context, I have seen you make. As recently illustrated by the example of the raw quote from a Wiking member you posted in this thread.

You are right that I presumed you had read the source you were quoting to support your point of view. Since it would be unethical and unscholarly behaviour by you to do this with a source you have not even read. I expect basic honesty, which appears lacking. Of course this has nothing to do with the book's author etc. It is also disappointing to see padded out posts with links to sites, where the information relevant to this thread could have been summarised in a simple paragraph - and saved time/effort.

I too have sensed AHF posters froth at the mouth - but in attempts to spin all sorts of negative claims/comments about the Waffen SS with sarcastic retorts, exaggerations and stories. We all know that the Waffen SS had it's issues, but I am surprised when posters invent extra stuff or do cartwheels when they cannot provide sources for their claims (or use sources they have not read).

Dennis