German PoWs forced into slave labour by Soviets

[Jure]

I do not believe the USSR enslaved German civilians and took them East.

Really? At least according to Anthony Beevor's book Berlin: The Downfall 1945 many German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east.

Quote the book.

...You want me to find the bit of text where it says something about that German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east? The book is around 400 pages....

[Beppo Schmidt]

Kelty90 wrote:

It is bad enough all the rubbish about "innocent" civilians.

How are civilians not innocent? If German women and children raped by the Russians weren't innocent, then I guess by your logic the Russian villagers mutilated and hanged by the Germans weren't innocent either. Someone isn't guilty just because of where they live, and I fail to see why some people can't grasp such a banal fact.[/b]

KalaVelka wrote:

I am really getting tired of this. Everytime somebody asks something ugly about Allies, then some apologist dig out some "But look what germans did!" This is about what did the SOVIETS do with german PoWs. If you want, you can make your own topic about how evil the germans were (or just continue one of the 1.000.000 other topics about same issue).

Prost, Kamerad! If you want to talk about German war crimes, go to another thread, this is about Soviet war crimes. One war crime doesn't justify another, lol.

[David Thompson]

KalaVelka -- Neither insulting nor profane posts are permitted here. Don't do it again.

[KalaVelka]

One can be the direct cause of another, so no, it is very important to know what the Germans were doing to Soviet POW's.

And you think that we dont know about some nasty German stuff?

Sorry David (and the hole forum), I apologize my behaviour.

Kasper

[David Thompson]

At the start of this thread, Colonel SteelFist wrote:

I'm doing some research on German PoWs and I'd like to ask the extent of usage of German POWs for slave labour by the Soviets. It's obvious they did so, even violating the Geneva Convention's stipulation that officer POWs are no to be used for manual labour. How many PoWs did the Soviets use for forced slave labour, and what jobs were they made to do? How many inncent German PoWs died from those activities?

I asked for proof so I wouldn't have to close the thread. I didn't get any proof, so the thread is closed for 24 hours to give the posters a last chance to provide it. I'll reopen the thread tomorrow so that some proof, if any, can be posted. If no proof is forthcoming, the thread will be locked and closed.

[David Thompson]

This thread is open for posting proof of these claims:

I'm doing some research on German PoWs and I'd like to ask the extent of usage of German POWs for slave labour by the Soviets. It's obvious they did so, even violating the Geneva Convention's stipulation that officer POWs are no to be used for manual labour. How many PoWs did the Soviets use for forced slave labour, and what jobs were they made to do? How many inncent German PoWs died from those activities?

[Jeremy Chan]

David, in wanting a reply for me within 24 hours, you've overlooked one thing: the time differences between us. However, I'm here. So, you want proof and evidence? Fine, here's the proof. Why do you want proof? I'll tell you why. Because I know that the Soviet Union deployed its PoWs into forced labour. Because all belligerent nations of WW2 employed their PoWs into some form of manual work at some time, whether it be farm work or anything which went towards the war effort. But the Soviet Union and Japan were the only nations involved who deliberately violated the Geneva Convention in terms of using PoWs for labour, slave labour etc.
Want more evidence? Erich Hartmann described that "one of the first things they did when we arrived was to give us physical examinations to etermine how fit we were for labour", in a Soviet prison camp. And bear in mind he was a major, and thus under the Geneva Convention 'exempt from assigned manual labour'.

Now the purpose of my thread was to find out/discuss what jobs the Soviets assigned their PoWs into, and what was the extent. And also I'm sure a number of German or Italian PoWs died in forced labour, I'd like to find out about this. This of course doesn't mean the millions of German PoWs who died in captivity.

[Juha Tompuri]

http://www.spokesmanbooks.com/spokesman ... edev69.pdf page 3

Regards, Juha

[David Thompson]

Colonel SteelFist -- You said:

David, in wanting a reply for me within 24 hours, you've overlooked one thing: the time differences between us. However, I'm here.

I said I would close the thread for 24 hours; I didn't say I would close it in 24 hours.

You also said:

So, you want proof and evidence? Fine, here's the proof.

If the proof is somewhere in your post, I'm not seeing it.

You went on to ask:

Why do you want proof?

The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of this section of the forum and give our readers something constructive to read. A secondary reason is that there have been a number of posts recently that make inflammatory claims with no apparent basis in fact. These posts are contentious and degrade the quality of this section of the forum. Consequently, that sort of thread will be closed.

You added:

Erich Hartmann described that "one of the first things they did when we arrived was to give us physical examinations to etermine how fit we were for labour", in a Soviet prison camp. And bear in mind he was a major, and thus under the Geneva Convention 'exempt from assigned manual labour'.

Hartmann lost his POW status when he was convicted of war crimes by a Soviet tribunal in December, 1949, and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment (Blonde Knight of Germany, p. 260). However just or unjust his trial may have been (I have only seen Hartmann's account of the proceedings), he was not exempt from assigned manual labor for that reason.

This gets us back to your opening lines of this thread:

I'd like to ask the extent of usage of German POWs for slave labour by the Soviets. It's obvious they did so, even violating the Geneva Convention's stipulation that officer POWs are no to be used for manual labour. How many PoWs did the Soviets use for forced slave labour, and what jobs were they made to do? How many inncent German PoWs died from those activities?

This question would be inoffensive if it asked whether the USSR used German POWs for "slave labor." However, your phrasing assumes the point and asks for examples and for statistics on "How many inncent German PoWs died from those activities?." This is exactly the kind of post I intend to close, if after asking for evidence, none is forthcoming. Take due notice of that and govern yourself accordingly.

[Kunikov]

This of course doesn't mean the millions of German PoWs who died in captivity.

I'm sorry, exactly how many 'millions' died?

[Rob - wssob2]

Grossdeutschland machine gunner Alfred Novotny wrote about his experiences in post-war Soviet labor camps in his autobiography The Good Soldier

http://www.aberjonapress.com/catalog/tgs/

Novotny's book provides some interesting details about USSR labor camps - such as how taking the time to learn Russian would increase your chances of survival, etc. Remarkably, he doesn't bear any malice towards his Soviet captors, and was able to see them as humans just like everyone else. A refreshingly different perspective, especially given all the rhetoric one usually hears on the subject. I'd definitely recommend the book.

Novotny was eventually released, immigrated to the USA, and became a successful businessman in the hospitality field. He visited last year's MAX show.

[Kunikov]

I do not believe the USSR enslaved German civilians and took them East.

Really? At least according to Anthony Beevor's book Berlin: The Downfall 1945 many German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east.

Quote the book.

...You want me to find the bit of text where it says something about that German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east? The book is around 400 pages....

Yes, find the text.

[kelty90]

Re my comment about "innocent" civilians, I will elaborate.
As far as I am concerned, some civilians can be considered "innocent" and some cannot. For example, anyone directly aiding and assisting the war effort is hardly "innocent". By this I include anyone working at war industries...making tanks, guns, ships, ammunition, electronics, etc, also farmers, transportation workers, etc.
During WW2 my mother worked on a production line for Spitfires, later Lancasters, she was hardly an "innocent" teenage girl. The best way for Germany to stop the bombings would have been to kill my mother and the girls she worked with.
Merely because one is female, or a parent, and not in the uniformed services, it does not make one "innocent".
Now, certainly, children are "innocent". However, if their parents live in a regime that embarks on a war, then they may well get hurt. Nothing new or unusual about that.
I really doubt that Hitler gave the slightest thought towards civilian casualties when he launched Germany on war with Poland , France, Netherlands, etc. However, as leader it was his duty to protect his people. This he failed to do.
Wars are certainly won or lost on the battlefield, and if a country can influence the battlefield by killing civilians, then it will be done. The perfect example being the Allied bombing of Germany. Many civilian casualties, which was unfortunate. But by doing it, a large number of German troops and large numbers of guns and much equipment was kept from the battlefields, which was a good result.

[Misty Dawn Bright]

I do not believe the USSR enslaved German civilians and took them East.

Really? At least according to Anthony Beevor's book Berlin: The Downfall 1945 many German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east.

Quote the book.

...You want me to find the bit of text where it says something about that German civilians were sent to labour camp's in the east? The book is around 400 pages....

Yes, find the text.

The book must have an index somewhere, so look in it for references to "German POWS" or even "Soviets" .... There must be something under that heading about Soviet conduct after the War towards the POWs they had captured. If the book doesn't have an index, I'm afraid you're just going to have to scan the relevant chapters carefully.

And I have to agree with the Moderators as well as many people on this thread. The information you found in that book can't be comprehensive enough to justify making the claim that you made if you can't even remember the page number of the source, the witnesses involved, or even any relevant details about the issue.

So please, find that source and post it. I'm still somewhat curious about this issue.

[Jure]

I'm afraid you're just going to have to scan the relevant chapters carefully

I'm afraid i dont have time to do that.

I did find this though:

In recent years various German groups have, with the cooperation of the Russians, been establishing memorials for the German civilians and soldiers who died in the Soviet Union. Recently, a Russian Jew, Aleksandr Gutman, produced a documentary film in which he interviewed four German women from East Prussia who as young girls had been raped by Red Army troops, then transported soon after the war to a particularly hellish outpost of the Gulag, no. 517, near Petrozavodsk in Karelia. Of the 1,000 girls and women who were transported to that camp, 522 died within six months of their arrival. These women were among tens of thousands of German civilians, men and women, deported, with the acquiescence of the Western powers, to the Soviet Union as German "reparations-in-kind" for slave labor.

Of an additional 875,000 German civilians abducted and transported to the camps, almost half perished.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p39_michaels.html