German PoWs forced into slave labour by Soviets

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Rob - wssob2
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#31

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 18 Mar 2004, 18:08

But consider the source. See if you can find another reference - online or offline - to coorborate the IHR claim.

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#32

Post by David Thompson » 18 Mar 2004, 18:08

There have been many threads in this section of the forum devoted to comparative Soviet and German POW death rates. That isn't the subject we're discussing. The topic at issue in this thread is Soviet slave labor projects for German POWs. So far, there has been next to no information on the topic, although the thread is on its third page. I've already asked several times before for evidence, so this is my last call for proof before I close the thread.


Jure
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#33

Post by Jure » 18 Mar 2004, 18:38

Rob - WSSOB wrote:But consider the source. See if you can find another reference - online or offline - to coorborate the IHR claim.
An offline source would be the book "Berlin: The downfall 1945", but i'm not going to search whole chapters for that piece of text.

But what's wrong with the Institute for Historical Review as a source?

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Penn44
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#34

Post by Penn44 » 18 Mar 2004, 19:07

Steelfist, what definition are you using for "slave labor"? As far as I know, there is no legal definition for the term, "slave labor." The term has different meanings to different persons, and you really need to define it.

What is the nature of your "research" project? What are you intending to do with your research? Knowing this may allow us to better assist you.



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Juha Tompuri
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#35

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Mar 2004, 19:08

As I´m not very good at english language, could you help me with these:
How to define "slave labor"?
How does "forced labor" differ from "slave labor"? Or does it?

Regards, Juha

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Penn44
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#36

Post by Penn44 » 18 Mar 2004, 19:20

Juha Tompuri wrote:As I´m not very good at english language, could you help me with these:
How to define "slave labor"?
How does "forced labor" differ from "slave labor"? Or does it?

Regards, Juha
I have seen slave labor and forced labor used interchangeably, and I have seen it given different uses.

When I think of "slave labor", I generally consider that the slave laborer has 1) no choice in the matter, and 2) does not receive any compensation for his/her work except for food and shelter.

The Germans forced foreign workers from occupied countries to go to Germany as laborers. I have seen the term, "forced laborers" used to described these persons, and I have seen the word, "foreign laborers" as well. Although forced to go to Germany to labor, these foreign nationals received some form of wage.

"POW labor" is of course, POWs who labor. The Geneva Convention required the detaining power/or employer to pay these POWs a wage.


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Kunikov
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#37

Post by Kunikov » 18 Mar 2004, 19:25

Jure wrote:
Of an additional 875,000 German civilians abducted and transported to the camps, almost half perished.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n1p39_michaels.html
No source is presented, and as I see it most of the information is coming from Solzhenitsyn and Conquest, neither can be trusted with numbers.

Rob - wssob2
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#38

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 18 Mar 2004, 19:25

But what's wrong with the Institute for Historical Review as a source?
As an organization, it has a reputation for Holocaust denial and pro-Nazi apologia. It's discussed in several books, including Lying About Hitler, Why People Belive Weird Things, and Denying the Holocaust

Besides, it's always good to back up a source with multiple references, if possible - no matter what time period of history one is researching.

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Juha Tompuri
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#39

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Mar 2004, 19:32

Penn44 wrote:When I think of "slave labor", I generally consider that the slave laborer has 1) no choice in the matter, and 2) does not receive any compensation for his/her work except for food and shelter.
"POW labor" is of course, POWs who labor. The Geneva Convention required the detaining power/or employer to pay these POWs a wage.
So, " POW labor" without wage is "slave/forced labor" Am I correct?

Regards, Juha

P.S. Did the Soviets pay wage to their "POW labor"?

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Penn44
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#40

Post by Penn44 » 18 Mar 2004, 19:38

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Penn44 wrote:When I think of "slave labor", I generally consider that the slave laborer has 1) no choice in the matter, and 2) does not receive any compensation for his/her work except for food and shelter.
"POW labor" is of course, POWs who labor. The Geneva Convention required the detaining power/or employer to pay these POWs a wage.
So, " POW labor" without wage is "slave/forced labor" Am I correct?

Regards, Juha

P.S. Did the Soviets pay wage to their "POW labor"?
I do not know the official Soviet policy in regards to paying German POWs. I would venture to guess that the Soviets regarded the uncompensated German POW labor as compensation for the damage that the invading Hitlerite Army had inflicted on the Soviet Union which sounds fair.


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Jure
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#41

Post by Jure » 18 Mar 2004, 20:02

Rob - WSSOB wrote:
But what's wrong with the Institute for Historical Review as a source?
As an organization, it has a reputation for Holocaust denial and pro-Nazi apologia. It's discussed in several books, including Lying About Hitler, Why People Belive Weird Things, and Denying the Holocaust
8O, I did not know that.

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#42

Post by David Thompson » 18 Mar 2004, 20:16

Juha -- You asked:
As I´m not very good at english language, could you help me with these:
How to define "slave labor"?
How does "forced labor" differ from "slave labor"? Or does it?
This is a question Colonel SteelFist should answer for you, since he introduced the term when he started the thread. The terms have more or less fixed meanings in English, but I'm not sure how Colonel SteelFist meant the term "slave labor" to be understood.

You also asked:
" POW labor" without wage is "slave/forced labor" Am I correct?
I don't think so, nor do I think that "slave labor" and "forced labor" have the same meaning. But again, the term is for Colonel SteelFist to define, since he used it. The other readers would have to guess at what he meant.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#43

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Mar 2004, 21:11

According to Pankevich’s “reaptriacii I trud voenoplennix kak istochnik vosstanovleniya ekonomiki SSSR posle vtory mirovoy voyni” – Repatriations and POWs labor as source for reconstruction of USSR economy after WW II” number of German civilians interned (males 17 to 50) and who worked in Soviet industry was 271672.
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Jure
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#44

Post by Jure » 18 Mar 2004, 23:11

Nice oleg :)

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Juha Tompuri
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#45

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Mar 2004, 00:52

oleg wrote: number of German civilians interned (males 17 to 50) and who worked in Soviet industry was 271672.
Do you know were they paid wage for their work?

Regards, Juha

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