German PoWs forced into slave labour by Soviets

[Eugene (J. Baker)]

Eugene,

Thank you very much for your effort.
I´ve learnt much from the posts you have made.
Still one more question: does your source mention anything about the other nationalities that were interned?

Regards, Juha

As mentioned in this article there were some cases but it was made by mistake and was not a rule.

[Christian W.]

I find it amusing how some Russians try to justificate their mistreatment of Axis POWs with "eye for an eye" logic.
This little logic caused the death of hundreds of thousands Axis prisoners who were held as prisoners for years without proper trial, most of them not even being guilty for anything. ( ect Erich Hartmann. Funny how shooting down enemy aircraft was considered a war crime in the Soviet Union). "Axis did this, Axis did that..." But when it comes to Allied crimes (especially Soviet) people tend to turn blind eye for such.

it is very important to know what the Germans were doing to Soviet POW's.

That is not important at all in this case.

Has the Russian goverment offered its official apology to German, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian (and the list goes on)
goverments for the death of these people?

[Kunikov]

I find it amusing how some Russians try to justificate their mistreatment of Axis POWs with "eye for an eye" logic.
This little logic caused the death of hundreds of thousands Axis prisoners who were held as prisoners for years without proper trial, most of them not even being guilty for anything. ( ect Erich Hartmann. Funny how shooting down enemy aircraft was considered a war crime in the Soviet Union). "Axis did this, Axis did that..." But when it comes to Allied crimes (especially Soviet) people tend to turn blind eye for such.

it is very important to know what the Germans were doing to Soviet POW's.

That is not important at all in this case.

Has the Russian goverment offered its official apology to German, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian (and the list goes on)
goverments for the death of these people?

Recall that German POWs were not necessarily treated worse than Soviet citizens. Also, no apology should be made. These men invaded the Soviet Union under a leadership with genocidal intentions. They aren't innocent victims.

[Annelie]

Also, no apology should be made. These men invaded the Soviet Union under a leadership with genocidal intentions. They aren't innocent victims.

According to Geneva Convention I believe that they were not treated as required.
Perhaps to your thinking the Japanese also should not apologize for their
treatment of POWs?

[Kunikov]

Also, no apology should be made. These men invaded the Soviet Union under a leadership with genocidal intentions. They aren't innocent victims.

According to Geneva Convention I believe that they were not treated as required.
Perhaps to your thinking the Japanese also should not apologize for their
treatment of POWs?

Soviet Union didn't sign the Geneva Convention. The Japanese have nothing to do with this debate, if you want to compare something make sure the context is at least similar.

[Annelie]

Your correct they didn't sign the Geneva Convention.
My mistake.

[David Thompson]

A collection of unsourced opinions, uninformative repartee, "red herring" posts and posts attempting to introduce modern politics into the historical discussions of this apolitical forum were deleted by the moderator -- DT.

Everybody -- AHF is very interested in getting sourced information on the subject matter of this topic. Our readers are far less interested in opinions, etc. which don't offer the kind of verifiable information the readers come here to get. Please keep that in mind when posting.

[Anne G,]

Also, no apology should be made. These men invaded the Soviet Union under a leadership with genocidal intentions. They aren't innocent victims.

According to Geneva Convention I believe that they were not treated as required.
Perhaps to your thinking the Japanese also should not apologize for their
treatment of POWs?

Soviet Union didn't sign the Geneva Convention.

Except the one agreement concerning wounded and sick POWs.

However, the SU announced on 17th of July 1941 to Sweden that was its "protective power" that it will act according to the Hague treaty 1907 that was signed by the Tsar's government. Also, Molotov wrote the same on the 8th August in a verbal note to allied and neutral powers, though presupposing reciprocity.

In the Nürnberg trial it was stated that Germany was obliged in every case to act according to general principles of international law and one of the reasons was the preface of the Hague treaty.

So, whether a state or its opponent was a signer or not, the principle to treat POWs humanly was always binding in general level.

[Yuri]

I find it amusing how some Russians try to justificate their mistreatment of Axis POWs with "eye for an eye" logic.
...
ect Erich Hartmann. Funny how shooting down enemy aircraft was considered a war crime in the Soviet Union.

I find amusing your words.
First, anybody in Soviet Union does not perceive Erich Hartmann seriously. Ridiculous fairy tales on uncountable quantity{amount} brought down the Erich Hartmann's planes of the opponent can accept as the truth those who sympathizes lost WWII the side.
It for you Erich Hartmann the person worthy for imitation, and for Russian is ridiculous inflated propagation the person. The same inflated propagation by a person was the tankman the general Balck destroying, ostensibly, Russian tanks in hundreds of pieces at one sitting, at a stretch.

Second, Erich Hartmann has been condemned for fulfilment of concrete felony. After signing by Germany of the certificate{act} about capitulation this guy has not obeyed the order, and began to destroy property belonging to Russian Army.
Burning property (including planes) after an end of the war, Erich Hartmann has turned from the soldier to the ordinary criminal. The present soldiers so do not act. The present soldier should recognize the defeat adequately. For fulfilment of felonies made after end of the war Erich Hartmann has been condemned by court.

It is a subject lesson for those who in the future ambassador of signing of capitulation will try to burn property belonging to Russian Army.

[Topspeed]

I think officers were not in the same position as normal private.

I recently read again a book ( a new one..different perspective..a postum memoirs ) about finnish captain in the soviet Pow camps. Same camp as Feldmarschal Paulus for instance.

He got more tobacco than others.

His fellow pilot pow turned him in and he was beaten badly and manhandled in general by GRU. He was "guilty" of flying ME 109s outa Germany and belonging to nationalistic organisation before the war ( National Guard kinda movement ).


Yuri,

What and when did Hartmann after the war was over ? I am curious ?

[Xserx]

I and have not understood, this theme whether or not will be closed?
If to speak on items:
1. Structure of use POW's and DP in works in USSR in 1946 you can look here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15
2.Mass use of work POWs began only in 1943-1944. Thus it charged wages, though also of very small sizes (it changed from 17 up to 60 roubles per day). After war the contents POWs was gradually improved. At repatriation POWs could spend the earned money for a thing, which were available in shops at camps.
3.Formally (according to the decision SNK USSR from 1/06/41) to works the soldiers and corporals could be attracted only. In practice, to works attracted also officers too.

However, I doubt, that use POWs in works on restoration of economy USSR deserves to appear in this Forum section. I have not seen the proofs of connection between it and war crimes.

Best.
Xserx/

[David Thompson]

For interested readers -- Erich Hartmann's account of his war crimes trial in the Soviet Union can be seen at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7557#97557

For a Wikipedia claim that a Russian court exonerated Hartmann in 1997 on the grounds that his war crimes conviction had been unlawful, see:

Russian court voids war crime conviction of Erich Hartmann
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=803873

[David Thompson]

Xserx -- You remarked:

I and have not understood, this theme whether or not will be closed?

and

However, I doubt, that use POWs in works on restoration of economy USSR deserves to appear in this Forum section. I have not seen the proofs of connection between it and war crimes.

I don't plan to close the topic. The answer to your second set of comments depends upon the circumstances under which POWs in the USSR labored, who was made to labor, and whether or not the POWs were kept too long. For details, see the Hague IV Convention of 1907 and the 1929 Geneva Convention on POWs, at:

Hague IV - Laws and Customs of War on Land: 18 October 1907
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm

1929 - Convention Between the United States of America and Other Powers, Relating to Prisoners of War; July 27
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva02.htm

Since we don't have a lot of information on these issues, I'll leave the discussion open.

[Yuri]

1929 - Convention Between the United States of America and Other Powers, Relating to Prisoners of War; July 27
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva02.htm

Counter note of the National Commissariat Foreign Affairs (NKID) the USSR to embassy the USA in Soviet Union with an explanation of a position concerning the Geneva convention of 1929.

On November, 25, 1941.
The national commissariat foreign has put, the respect to the American embassy testifies, have honour in reply to the note of embassy from November, 13, 1941 to inform the following:
The Soviet government, expressing the gratitude to the government the USA for the shown attention to position prisoner of war in Germany, cannot agree, however, with the statement contained in the specified note of embassy the USA, that non-use by the German authorities to Soviet prisoner of war and as taking place in Germany prisoner of war other countries established by the international contracts and customs of rules of the reference with prisoner of war speak ostensibly that Soviet Union is not the participant of the Geneva convention of 1929 and that on Germany does not lay the obligation to apply position of the convention to Soviet prisoner of war in Germany.

The German government and the German authorities, do not reckon with international law, roughly and regularly breaking all international contracts and agreements including concerning the reference with prisoner of war, spend concerning Soviet prisoner of war a mode of a bloody arbitrariness, deprivation of rights and mockery which cannot be justified by any references to a non-participation of the USSR in the Geneva convention. Such references are especially deprived any basis, that the Soviet government of more July, 17 of this year in the note to the Swedish government and as on August, 8 this year in the note devoted all accredited at government of USSR to embassies and missions, has declared the readiness to observe on the basis of reciprocity all regulations about laws and customs of overland war of the Hague convention of 1907 including regulations about prisoner of war.

In conformity about these the Soviet government from first days of war with hitlerite Germany which has perfidiously attacked the USSR and her accomplices strictly and in full applies to prisoner of war the struggling countries all principles and the positions stipulated by the specified Hague convention, conterminous with main principles and positions concerning prisoner of war the Geneva convention of 1929.

The Soviet government considers also necessary to pay attention the government the USA that Germany, being the participant of the Geneva convention, is obliged, irrespective of, whether is the participant of this convention as well Soviet Union, completely to observe all rules and positions of the convention by virtue of article contained in her of 82-nd, establishing, that during war if one of the sides is not the participant of the convention, position of last will remain, nevertheless, obligatory, as well as between the struggling countries which participate in this convention.

As to a question on the relation Soviet the government to principles of the Geneva convention of 1929 and an opportunity for the USSR to join this convention the Soviet government, showing solidarity with all positions and principles of this convention, cannot, however accept position of article of 9-th convention where accommodation in prisoner-of-war camps on a racial belonging is established that is in the direct contradiction with article of 123-rd Constitution (Organic law) of the USSR. On this basis the Soviet government cannot give a consent on connection of Soviet Union to the Geneva convention of 1929.

In embassy of the United States of America
Kuibyshev.
Truly: R. KONDRAT'EV

(AVP RF. Archive of Foreign policy of the Russian Federation.
f. 0129, op. 26, p. 36, d. 1, l. 133-134. The certified copy)
(Russian Archiv vol. 24. VOV 13 (2). S. 33-34. M., Terra, 1999)

Authors of the Geneva convention of 1929 were two racist states - winners of the First World war - the French colonial empire and the British colonial empire. White officers and soldiers of these two colonial empires, having been taken prisoner to the opponent, refused is in a captivity in one camp together black and yellow soldiers of the own armies.
Russia in any quality (the Kiev Russia, the Moscow princedom, the Moscow Empire, Russian empire, Soviet Union) never were racist.
Therefore Russia never will agree to the separate maintenance in a captivity of soldiers and officers to racial attributes.

To all amateurs to accuse Soviet Union that he, ostensibly maliciously has not signed the democratic Geneva convention I advise well to study essence of a question before to show accusations of this direction.
To Europeans who accuse the USSR that he has not signed, ostensibly, super democratic (and actually racist under the contents) the Geneva convention, it is necessary to study well the essence a problem before to hurl accusations to the state which has rescued half from you from that to share fate to be slaves, and second half to share fate to be slaveholders.

[David Thompson]

Yuri -- You wrote:

To all amateurs to accuse Soviet Union that he, ostensibly maliciously has not signed the democratic Geneva convention I advise well to study essence of a question before to show accusations of this direction.

You (and other readers) may find this thread from 2003 of interest:

USSR and Geneva Convention
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=30523