Pre-War Crimes of the NKVD

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#31

Post by David Thompson » 17 Mar 2004, 05:33

Askold -- Thank you for improving the tone and scholarship of this discussion.

Oleg -- I was looking forward to reading your quotes but they look like a collection of vowels and numerals with diacritical marks. Is there any chance for a synopsis or translation?

Michael -- You said:
I really would like to have a civilised exchange on the issue of the Jewish presence in the NKVD, how that was perceived by the population, and the degree to which it was a factor in the later persecution of the Jewish population as a whole. I would really like to leave the polemics aside.
Me too. How could such a such a notion have ever been accepted?

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#32

Post by michael mills » 17 Mar 2004, 06:41

How could such a such a notion have ever been accepted?
The position I have always taken is that there was a relationship between the Jewish population of the former Russian Empire and the Bolsehvik regime, but that it was greatly exaggerated in the minds of anti-Bolsehvik observers, to the extent that Bolshevism as such was seen as a Jewish plot.

The three main factors as I see them are:

1. Marxism, and its Communist variant, do have a Judaic origin, although much attenuated and removed from a specific Jewish context.

2. Jews were over-represented in revolutionary movements in Russia, from the late 19th century onward, for a number of historical reasons. Persons of Jewish origin occupied high positions in the Bolshevik Party, but also in other revolutionary parties that were rivals to the Bolsheviks and later suppressed by them, eg Bundits, mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries.

3. Although certain groups of Jews did suffer at Bolsehvik hands for political reasons, eg Bourgeois Zionist leaders, religious leaders, the position of the Jewish population as a whole did improve markedly under the Bolshevik regime, moreso than any other population group. Thus, the Jewish population did not suffer anything like the the upheavals that crushed the peasantry.

4. The only legal political party in the Soviet Union other than the Bolshevik Party, after all other parties were suppressed in 1918, was a Jewish party, the Poalei Zion, a leftist Zionist group. Although it too was finally dissolved in 1928, the fact that it was the sole non-Communist party allowed to exist for 10 years must have been noticeable, and must have given the impression that the Bolshevik regime favoured Jews (albeit those with the right political orientation) over any other population group.

As regards the nature of the relationship between the Jewish minority in the East Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939 and the Soviet Government, I can do no better than recommend the book by Bogdan Musial, "Kontrarevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen", which gives a very balanced account in my view, not anti-Jewish but not shying from revealing political activities by Jews that caused a reaction against them.

You will recall that I had posted excerpts from this book on another thread. I had intended to post more, but there did not seem to be much interest (the only reaction was from posters who dismissed its conclusions out of hand without apparently having read the book), so I did not see why I should waste my time.


David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#33

Post by David Thompson » 17 Mar 2004, 07:27

Michael -- You said:
You will recall that I had posted excerpts from this book on another thread. I had intended to post more, but there did not seem to be much interest (the only reaction was from posters who dismissed its conclusions out of hand without apparently having read the book), so I did not see why I should waste my time.
As you know, I've had the same feeling myself when I've posted primary source materials, which are usually met with a dense silence. I don't think it's a waste of time at all. Anything that adds to the knowledge base of this section of the forum is an improvement.

xcalibur
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 20 Apr 2003, 16:12
Location: Pennsylvania

#34

Post by xcalibur » 17 Mar 2004, 07:39

David Thompson wrote:Michael -- You said:
You will recall that I had posted excerpts from this book on another thread. I had intended to post more, but there did not seem to be much interest (the only reaction was from posters who dismissed its conclusions out of hand without apparently having read the book), so I did not see why I should waste my time.
As you know, I've had the same feeling myself when I've posted primary source materials, which are usually met with a dense silence. I don't think it's a waste of time at all. Anything that adds to the knowledge base of this section of the forum is an improvement.
MM and DT: That you both take the trouble to post primary source materials is always greatly appreciated though not often enough acknowledged.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#35

Post by David Thompson » 17 Mar 2004, 08:47

Thanks, xcalibur. Oleg is another stalwart in that line, as is Rob. It's posts like that, together with the thoughts they generate, that make this forum what it is. It's easy to overlook the solid contributions when there's so much flame, smoke and hot air.

alf
Member
Posts: 1343
Joined: 09 Oct 2003, 11:45
Location: Australia

#36

Post by alf » 17 Mar 2004, 12:14

Michael Mills said
This would be just over a week after German forces took L'viv and saw the evidence of the massacre of Ukrainian prisoners committed by NKVD troops (on a direct order from Beria, as Oleg tells us) before their flight.

As the Polish historian, Bogdan Musial, makes clear in his excellent and even-handed book, "Kontrarevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschießen", is was the sight of theses Soviet atrocities (piles of dismembered bodies in the prisons, thousands of decomposed bodies disinterred from hastily covered mass graves) that confirmed in the minds of the recently arrived German soldiers the basic inhumanity and monstrosity of the regime against which they were now fighting. That confirmation justified in their minds the orders they had received to treat the Soviet enemy with the utmost harshness, and made them more willing to inflict the severest retribution on that enemy.

I note that certain posters on this forum whose outlook may fairly be described as philosemitic neo-Bolshevik constantly list the acts of violence comitted by German forces (which in itself is unobjectionable) while totally ignoring the context in which those acts of violence were committed, namely the consciousness of being involved in an existential conflict with a regime that had for many years been committing equal acts of violence, right up to the arrival of the German forces.

To ignore that context in which the German forces began to commit their own acts of savage violence represents a cynical falsification of history.

It might be protested that acts of violence against the Jewish minority in places like L'viv could not be justified by the crimes committed by the Soviet regime. That is a reasonable point of view, but it needs to be remembered that the Soviet population in general identified the Jews with that regime, and had directed their feelings of resentment against the Bolshevik dictatorship against the Jews ever since 1918. It should not surprise us, therefore, that German soldiers made the same identification.
If I am reading this post and thread correctly, Michaels Mills arguement is that Jews comprised the majority of the NKVD (or at least controlled it).
The NKVD committed a series of atrocties that the German soldiers witnessed the aftermath, and were so traumitised by this, they reacted brutally.

It is this NKVD ( remember Jewish) atrocity that is respondible for German atrocties therefore the Jews are actually responsible for all that befell on the Eastern front, the Einzgruppen etc That smacks of blatant revision. So I repeat from above again.

I note that certain posters on this forum whose outlook may fairly be described as philosemitic neo-Bolshevik constantly list the acts of violence comitted by German forces (which in itself is unobjectionable) while totally ignoring the context in which those acts of violence were committed,

As a point of general interest the opposite of philosemtic is antisemtic.

The question that I ask is this genunie research or merely antisemtism lurking under psuedo_science. Looking through the Internet, there is this curious statement concerning Michael's views on Jews and communists.
"It is legitimate to adopt a critical attitude toward the relatively large number of Jews who particularly in the first decade after the Bolshevik revolution collaborated with the Soviet Government in the persecution of other peoples."

Statement of researcher Michael Mills, an official of the government of Australia at Canberra. (Source: Forward, March 10, 2000)
http://www.hoffman-info.com/communist.html
I would point out that the Australian Government would not recognise such a title nor association, it is obviously a mistake
You will recall that I had posted excerpts from this book on another thread. I had intended to post more, but there did not seem to be much interest (the only reaction was from posters who dismissed its conclusions out of hand without apparently having read the book), so I did not see why I should waste my time.
.
The intent is always to distract and shift the blame to the Jews for their own misfortunes. Something better suited to RODOH and David Irvings site.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1987
Joined: 28 Dec 2003, 02:52
Location: World
Contact:

#37

Post by Sergey Romanov » 17 Mar 2004, 13:17

> merely antisemtism lurking under psuedo_science.

That's true.

> Something better suited to RODOH

That's false.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

#38

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Mar 2004, 07:19

David Thompson wrote:Askold -- Thank you for improving the tone and scholarship of this discussion.

Oleg -- I was looking forward to reading your quotes but they look like a collection of vowels and numerals with diacritical marks. Is there any chance for a synopsis or translation?

Michael -- You said:
I really would like to have a civilised exchange on the issue of the Jewish presence in the NKVD, how that was perceived by the population, and the degree to which it was a factor in the later persecution of the Jewish population as a whole. I would really like to leave the polemics aside.
Me too. How could such a such a notion have ever been accepted?
Oleg -- I was looking forward to reading your quotes but they look like a collection of vowels and numerals with diacritical marks. Is there any chance for a synopsis or translation?
Sure. First two quotes are from the book by the Russian historian Meltuhov “Soviet-Polish wars – Military-Political conflict 1918-1939” It gives excerpts from the reports of Soviet troops (namely 87th and 45th Rifle divisions) that moved into Western Ukraine and Byelorussia (8th Rifle division) in 1939 – to sum them up -with the exception of local Poles aand the upper classes all local population was quite glad to see them. Moreover after the cessation of the hostilities there were some land swaps between Soviet and German occupational zones. Population of the areas that were supposed to go to the Germany seemingly was not too fond of idea at all. Staring with September 30th there was numerous inquires form the locals as of possibility to move to the Soviet zone. Directive # 0271 of Political Directorate of RKKA sated that people who are willing to go to the Soviet zone should be allowed to do so and people who wanted to go to the German zone should not be stopped either; at the same time it strictly forbade any propaganda that would encourage immigration or any forced resettlement. All in all 5th and 6th Armies had to settle over 42000 people in the Soviet zone . 28 people –all ethnic Poles –decided to go to the German zone form the Soviet one.
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 18 Mar 2004, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#39

Post by David Thompson » 18 Mar 2004, 18:26

Thanks, oleg. Your excerpts are valuable and informative, as usual.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#40

Post by michael mills » 01 Apr 2004, 09:38

Oleg wrote:
First two quotes are from the book by the Russian historian Meltuhov “Soviet-Polish wars – Military-Political conflict 1918-1939” It gives excerpts from the reports of Soviet troops (namely 87th and 45th Rifle divisions) that moved into Western Ukraine and Byelorussia (8th Rifle division) in 1939 – to sum them up -with the exception of local Poles aand the upper classes all local population was quite glad to see them. Moreover after the cessation of the hostilities there were some land swaps between Soviet and German occupational zones. Population of the areas that were supposed to go to the Germany seemingly was not too fond of idea at all. Staring with September 30th there was numerous inquires form the locals as of possibility to move to the Soviet zone. Directive # 0271 of Political Directorate of RKKA sated that people who are willing to go to the Soviet zone should be allowed to do so and people who wanted to go to the German zone should not be stopped either; at the same time it strictly forbade any propaganda that would encourage immigration or any forced resettlement. All in all 5th and 6th Armies had to settle over 42000 people in the Soviet zone . 28 people –all ethnic Poles –decided to go to the German zone form the Soviet one.
Care needs to be exercised in using the above reports as sources. Their content suggests that they had a propagandistic function, telling the Soviet Government what it wanted to hear, and supporting the line taken by the Soviet Government that its invasion of East Poland was really a liberation of enslaved Ukrainians and Belorussians from the oppressive yoke of the Polish "pany" (lords).

For a different view of the Soviet occupation, from a Polish perspective, I recommend the book "Revolution From Abroad", by the Polish-Jewish historian Jan Tomas Gross.

However, there is an element of truth in the reports in relation to the attitudes of the local population in the Soviet-occupied areas. As Musial points out in the book to which I have often referred, the Soviet Government did represent itself as liberating the Belorussian and Ukrainian populations from Polish tyranny, and for that reason it undertook measures that favoured those populations, and also the Jewish population, at the expense of the ethnic Poles. Musial states that for the first year of the Soviet occupation, repressive measures, including mass deportation, were directed almost exclusively against the Poles, in particular those in Government employment. For that reason, there was at first a tendency on the part of Belorussians and Ukrainians to accept the Soviet occupation.

However, the reality of sovietisation, in particular the confiscation of property and the collectivisation of peasant holdings, began to turn the population against the Soviet occupier. According to Musial, from the beginning of 1941, the Soviet authorities began to stamp down harshly on any signs of Ukrainian dissidence, with the result that by June 1941 the jails were full of Ukrainians who were the main victims of the massacres perpetrated by the NKVD before its retreat.

As for the exchange of populations, any history of German-Soviet relations from 1939 to 1941 will refer to the agreement on such exchanges, which formed part of the Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939. According to that agreement, all ethnic Belorussians and Ukrainians in the German zone of occupation would be permitted to cross into the Soviet zone, and all ethnic Germans in the Soviet zone would be permitted to cross into the German zone; no hindrance would be placed in the way of the exit and entry of those wishing to transfer.

The German authorities took advantage of the agreement to promote the movement of Jews from their zone into the Soviet zone. In some cases, they told Jews to represent themselves to the Soviet border authorities as ethnic Belorussians or Ukrainians of Jewish religion, thereby qualifying for automatic entry. In other cases, Jews were simply pushed across the line of demarcation at unguarded points.

It is estimated that at least 300,000 Jews had crossed from the German into the Soviet zone by the end of 1939. Almost all of these were evacuated by the Soviet authorities to Central Asia, mainly to towns in the vicinity of Tashkent, in 1940.

The exchanges of territory referred to in the reports were made in the Borders and Friendship Treaty, at Soviet request. The original line of demarcation agreed to in the secret appendix to the Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939 ran along the Vistula, ie it divided Warsaw and left the Lublin region on the Soviet zone. Thus, the line ran considerably to the west of the Curzon Line, and left considerable areas with a Polish majority population in the Soviet zone.

Since the Soviet invasion did not begin until 17 September, the German Army overran large areas allocated to the Soviet Union, eg they reached Lwow. Stalin then suggested a change to the division of territory agreed on 23 August; Lithuania, allotted to the German sphere of influence, would be transferred to the Soviet sphere, and the territory between the Vistula and the Bug would be transferred to the German sphere.

In that way, all the territory west of the Curzon Line, the Polish ethnic core, would fall under Germany, and the Soviet Union could more easily claim not to be an invader of Poland but rather the liberator of the Belorussian and Ukrainian majority populations of East Poland.

At the same time, Stalin rejected the German plan to set up a rump Polish puppet state in the areas of both the German and Soviet occupation zones with an ethnic Polish majority, ie in the area not annexed by either Germany or the Soviet Union.

Some historians believe that Stalin's proposal for an exchange of territory had the purpose of ensuring that the Soviet Union would not be seen as annexing purely Polish territory, ie it would annex only the territory east of the Curzon Line, which Britain had earlier proposed as the eastern border of Poland, thereby not offending Britain, and leaving the door open for a later rapprochment between Britain and the Soviet Union against Germany.

Furthermore, it left Germany with the odium of suppressing the Polish people, while Stalin could pose as the liberator of oppressed Belorussians and Ukrainians.


By the way, Oleg, I am still interested in hearing your interpretation for the sudden decline in senior NKVD officers of Jewish origin in 1938-39.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#41

Post by michael mills » 01 Apr 2004, 09:52

Alf wrote:
Looking through the Internet, there is this curious statement concerning Michael's views on Jews and communists.

Quote:
"It is legitimate to adopt a critical attitude toward the relatively large number of Jews who particularly in the first decade after the Bolshevik revolution collaborated with the Soviet Government in the persecution of other peoples."

Statement of researcher Michael Mills, an official of the government of Australia at Canberra. (Source: Forward, March 10, 2000)


http://www.hoffman-info.com/communist.html
I would point out that the Australian Government would not recognise such a title nor association, it is obviously a mistake
The statement by me was one of a number of answers I gave to a questionnaire sent to me by Blake Eskin, a correspondent for the "Forward".

Eskin had originally contacted me over a review I had written of the "Wilkomirski" book, pointing out a number of historical anomalies in it, and suggesting that the "recovered" memories were tainted, in particular by a book about a real child survivor. He then contacted me again after Irving's blustering publicisation of the material I had provided to him in the course of his court action, and sent me the questionnaire soliciting my views.

Some of the answers I sent to Eskin were published by him in the "Forward". Presumably that is where Hoffmann picked it up from.

At the time, I was an employee of the Australian Government. Eskin referred to that fact, although I made it very clear that all my comments were made in my capacity as a private citizen, and I was not speaking in my capacity as a Government employee.

Needless to say, I do not resile one iota from the opinion expressed in my quoted statement, and I laugh to scorn the insinuations of the Alfs of this world.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#42

Post by michael mills » 01 Apr 2004, 10:10

Alf wrote:
If I am reading this post and thread correctly, Michaels Mills arguement is that Jews comprised the majority of the NKVD (or at least controlled it).
According to material linked by Oleg, at this site, http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/stattab4.htm, in 1936 there were 43 NKVD commanders of Jewish nationality (39% of the total), as opposed to only 33 commanders of Russian nationality and a negligible 6 of Ukrainian nationality. Given that the size of the Soviet Jewish population was far smaller than that of the ethnic Russian and Ukrainian populations, it is clear that the Jewish nationality was vastly over-represented in the senior ranks of the NKVD.

Under such circumstances, it is no wonder that Russians and more particularly Ukrainians saw the NKVD as an organ of tyranny largely controlled by Jews and directed against the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. There were even more senior NKVD commanders of Latvian nationality (9) than of Ukrainian.

By 1939, the number of Jews in the senior ranks of the NKVD had been much reduced, to only 6, or 4%. Nevertheless, the impression of the NKVD as a Jewish-controlled instrument of terror remained in the minds of the people, particularly of Ukrainians.

It should be noted that the purge of ethnic Poles, Latvians and Germans from the senior ranks of the NKVD was even more severe than that of Jews; by 1939 those nationalities were no longer represented among the commanders.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

#43

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 01 Apr 2004, 11:32

michael mills wrote:Alf wrote:
If I am reading this post and thread correctly, Michaels Mills arguement is that Jews comprised the majority of the NKVD (or at least controlled it).
According to material linked by Oleg, at this site, http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/kto/stattab4.htm, in 1936 there were 43 NKVD commanders of Jewish nationality (39% of the total), as opposed to only 33 commanders of Russian nationality and a negligible 6 of Ukrainian nationality. Given that the size of the Soviet Jewish population was far smaller than that of the ethnic Russian and Ukrainian populations, it is clear that the Jewish nationality was vastly over-represented in the senior ranks of the NKVD.

Under such circumstances, it is no wonder that Russians and more particularly Ukrainians saw the NKVD as an organ of tyranny largely controlled by Jews and directed against the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. There were even more senior NKVD commanders of Latvian nationality (9) than of Ukrainian.

By 1939, the number of Jews in the senior ranks of the NKVD had been much reduced, to only 6, or 4%. Nevertheless, the impression of the NKVD as a Jewish-controlled instrument of terror remained in the minds of the people, particularly of Ukrainians.

It should be noted that the purge of ethnic Poles, Latvians and Germans from the senior ranks of the NKVD was even more severe than that of Jews; by 1939 those nationalities were no longer represented among the commanders.
Under such circumstances, it is no wonder that Russians and more particularly Ukrainians saw the NKVD as an organ of tyranny largely controlled by Jews and directed against the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. There were even more senior NKVD commanders of Latvian nationality (9) than of Ukrainian.
Neither Russians nor Ukrainians had any idea who were senior officers of NKVD at the time for the very simple reason - this information was secret. The actual data became available only in mid 90s. Consequently they could not see “the NKVD as an organ of tyranny largely controlled by Jews and directed against the Russian and Ukrainian peoples.” Even more so called “spontaneous” Jewish pogroms happened mostly in western Ukraine -that is in the territories that became Soviet after 1939. By that time as mr Mills noted there were hardly any Jews left in NKVD –but the again it does not matter because back then it was secret information –and mass of “enraged” Ukrainians could not simply know. Even more so in places where crimes of NKVD were shall we say more bloody (Lwow, Vinittza) heads of local NKVD were Ukrainians –which btw was the policy of the party which specifically moved local representatives of local ethnic majority into the position of power – that was done deliberately –in order not to give any additional source for propaganda to local nationalist

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

#44

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 01 Apr 2004, 11:36

By the way, Oleg, I am still interested in hearing your interpretation for the sudden decline in senior NKVD officers of Jewish origin in 1938-39.
NKVD was perpetually purged - if you think that the Russians form the table say in 1933 and 1936 are the same - you will be mistaken. Pretty much between 1933 and 1939 NKVD was practically completely purged twice over.

ps. btw collectivization in Western Ukraine was failing miserably

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#45

Post by michael mills » 01 Apr 2004, 12:19

Oleg wrote:
NKVD was perpetually purged - if you think that the Russians form the table say in 1933 and 1936 are the same - you will be mistaken. Pretty much between 1933 and 1939 NKVD was practically completely purged twice over.
Oleg,

I understand the point you are making.

But the table shows that when Russian senior NKVD officers were purged, they were replaced by other Russians, and in fact additional Russian senior officers were appointed.

When we look at the Jewish senior officers, we see that from 1934 to 1938, if any of them were purged they were generally replaced by other Jews, whereas the Jewish officers purged between 1938 and 1939 were not replaced by other Jews, but their places were taken by ethnic Russians and Georgians, as you originally pointed out.

My question is: why was the decision made at the end of 1938 not to replace purged Jews with other Jews? What was the factor that brought that about?

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”