General Juin's proclamation to colonial troops to rape

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Panzermahn
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#16

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Apr 2004, 09:26

Panzermahn~

Question about your book cover. If memory serves, that photo allegedly shows Volksdeutsche victims of Polish atrocities committed in August and/or September 1939. Is it really precise to call those particularly atrocities "Crimes of the Allies"?

~ Mike
Yes, because the perpetrators are a polish calvary squadron of the polish armed forces..Before the invasion of Poland, England and france had given guarantee to Poland to declare war against Germany if Germans invaded Poland..This made Poland an Ally of the Anglo-France alliance

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#17

Post by Panzermahn » 01 Apr 2004, 09:28

Information from our coming book

French colonial units under General Juin’s French Expeditionary Corp in Italy, 1944

-1st Moroccan Infantry division (DIM), General Guillaume.
-2nd Moroccan Infantry division (DIM), General Dody which was progresing on the Liri valley were happened most of these war crimes.
-3rd Algerian Infantry division (DIA),under General de Monsabert.
-4th Moroccan Mountain division (DMM) under General Sevez.
-4th Tunisian “Tirailleurs” regiment.

Translation of General Juin’s proclamation to his colonial troops from French to English
To the Soldiers of France,

Men who suffer in a foreign and enemy land, who are treated like dogs and must fight like wolves in order to become free men in your free country. Men who had been forced to renounce to all the pleasures, not even a swig of cognac before the battle. Men who have to make due with Arabian prostitutes that follow the baggage train, who risk suffering a bullet, the firing squad, every time you advance towards a white woman of tender flesh, reading the contempt in the beautiful eyes of these hot, sexy women.

You, valorous men!! Who had crossed the sea and endured the most atrocious labors, who have had the courage to advance with the bayonet against the enemy and the fire of submachine guns, who have walked barefoot on stones, you are braves, silent as the lynxes of the desert, resistant as the camels of Kabylia (a mountainous area in Algeria), pitiless as snakes, who fight with the bournous (an heavy clothe of crude wool used by the north Africans, also by these colonial troops), and disdain the helmet, you leopards, noble, wild animals that until now have been treated like jackals, like stinking wolves ,like slaughter meat.



Men of Africa!! Your general announces, solemnly swears to you, on his soldier’s honor and the flag of France, that this is the last time that the sun rises on your suffering, your deprivations and your hunger. Beyond these mountains, beyond those enemies who tonight you will kill, there is one earth rich and wide with women, wine and houses. If you succeed to advance beyond that line without leaving a single enemy alive, your general promises, swears and proclaims to you that those houses, women and wine, all that you may encounter will be yours, for your pleasure and will be so for 50 hours. And you will be able to have it all, to take it all, to destroy and carry away, if you win, for you have deserved it. Your general will maintain the promise if you will obey till the last victory.”


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#18

Post by Andreas » 02 Apr 2004, 11:20

So, since I doubt you were there to take notes yourself, what is your source for the proclamation? Or are you dispensing with such niceties?

And the answer "buy our book" is not good enough, since I have no intention to do so, unless you can show here that you have done your homework.

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#19

Post by Andreas » 02 Apr 2004, 11:48

Gwynn Compton wrote:
Christoph Awender wrote:
Gwynn Compton wrote:France and Italy respectively.

Gwynn
Actually Germany and Italy. :wink:

\Christoph
:lol: you are of course correct, I was thinking Strasbourg. :oops:

Gwynn
That's also in Germany.

Woops, wrong century... :wink:

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#20

Post by Panzermahn » 02 Apr 2004, 12:00

So, since I doubt you were there to take notes yourself, what is your source for the proclamation? Or are you dispensing with such niceties?

And the answer "buy our book" is not good enough, since I have no intention to do so, unless you can show here that you have done your homework.
We got many sources on this...but i only reveal it to you 2 source

Reuter newspaper clip on 1944 and the official newspaper of the Vatican, Osservatore Romano (sorry if i got the spelling wrong)....but the best source is, a walloon veteran friend of ostuf Charlemagne is sending us some documents received from a former French officer under Juin's French Expeditionary Corps who served with them during the occupation of Italy..If i reveal to you this walloon source, then my book is not going to sell..

so this a marketing strategy..we will release tiny bits of of our sources and you'll be definitely surprised to see that some of these sources even came from the Allied officers and soldiers

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#21

Post by Andreas » 05 Apr 2004, 17:52

Well, let's go through these then, shall we?

1. What is the source for the Reuters report?
2. What is the source for the Osservatore Romano report?
3. What was the position of the French officer, and when did he release this material?
4. Assuming that 3. is believable, why did he reveal it to your mystery Walloon veteran, instead of handing it to the press, or some form of authority?
5. Did this mystery Walloon veteran serve on the Allied or Axis side? Is he perchance one of Ostuf Charlemagne's right-wing former mates?

As you can see, I don't take that on the basis of the 'facts' you have presented here, you have any case to slander General Juin. I know that in Ostuf Charlemagne's opinion Juin is a 'Rascal', so I guess that you will not be meting out anything approaching fair treatment to him in your book.

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#22

Post by GFvB » 13 Jan 2005, 18:10

Dear Members,

First I will tell that I do not want to enter in a faith and believe question, but came here due to link from another topic.

In effect I asked information about what happend in the Cassino region after the fall, since I had opportunity to speak to older people from that area that told me this facts of which I where definitely not aware. There was no idea of "putting garbage on a fine soldier" as well as they told me that it where nord-africans but thought them under english rule.

I would appreciate the indications for the book so, since the facts are of a certain interest in Italy. After decades of denial of allied war-crimes lately a discussion has opend about mainly Tito's slaughters, but also about colonial troops and - and this is very sensitive obviously - crimes and random killing by the partisan forces. So everything well documented can help to shed light and avoid "gut-discussions" in italian newspapers, where there is already an overheated political discussion where both sides talk about everything but programs and politics.

GFvB

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#23

Post by Obserwator » 13 Jan 2005, 18:52

Yes, because the perpetrators are a polish calvary squadron of the polish armed forces..Before the invasion of Poland, England and france had given guarantee to Poland to declare war against Germany if Germans invaded Poland..This made Poland an Ally of the Anglo-France alliance
As IPN found no truth in allegations about any atrocites against German population any photos probably refer to death of German paramilitary organisations members who took part in invasion of Poland and in ethnic cleansing-like Selbstchuz

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#24

Post by David Thompson » 13 Jan 2005, 19:12

The topic is Marshal Juin's claimed proclamation to colonial troops permitting rape. Stay on it.

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#25

Post by brem's » 02 Feb 2005, 15:33

beautiful texte BUT COMPLETELY FALSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :x
this is a pure invention !
First, there is nothing in French archive, ALL open !
Probably made by Corelli,a neo fascist, in 1966, to credite is text "Italia martire, sacrificio di un popolo".
very nice exemple of historical falsification (JC NOTTIN, la campagne d'Italie, paris 2001, page 504)
How can you seriously imagine a french (or allied in general) general write that kind of text ! if it is thrue, all german general are serial killer !!!! if you now how Juin write, you will see that he write better than that awful text.
I work as student in history in sciences-po, in Paris, since 24 month on the battle of the Garigliano, and i never see a so ridiculous thing. Never any combat unit of CEF stay in a place for 50 hours because of the very speed rythm of the offensive, even in Esperia.
Corelli speak of 60 000 rapes ! for a corps of 130 000 hommes : 1 rape for 2 soldiers! with that i think that russian soldiers in germany are little raper ! 8O
even 20 000 rapes, it make 1 rape for 6 soldiers !!!!!
i will never say that there were no rape, but all were given to "marocain", even when proving to be GI's ou Tommy's !
The Vatican is no more a good source, with is faction pro or anti nazis : what a beautiful surprise : muslims in Italy ; for sure they rape everybody !!! Cardinal Tisserand, worried about rumor say he was tranquilised by Juin and de Gaulle because judgement were given to raper. Marshall Gander, a journalist said the troops are well, and the only crime he ear was not morrocan's but GI's'(M. Gander, After this many quest, 1949).
There were 346 men said guilty by CEF police and Court, must with heavy sentences (SHAT 10P68, prévoté et tribunal de cassation). It seems there were between 15 and 40 soldiers shoot by their officer in the front for rape.
do you konw that in 1947, 15 000 lires were given, in Esperia, to everyone who denounce a morrocan crime ! what king of justice !! Even italian refugees crimes were given to morrocan (H. Nicholson, The wars years, t.2, 1967).

there was rape by morrocan, but they are not the only one, and numbers are impossible to give, but surely less than those given in the after-war Italy. Do you really think that a member so important of NATO will let Juin take command of all the force in central Europe in the beginning of 50's ! do you really thin that french or italian communist, so important at that time will let pass that ? don't be ridiculous !
And never forget that France was shoot in the back by his sister Italy in june 1940, bombarding Marseilles or Toulon : maybe french civilians death or less important than italian rape ! There 67 000 death by Allied bomber in France, but France was in the good side !!!! :roll:
Even GI's and Tommy's rape in France ! but war is no more a politicaly correct party !!!!

By, Brem's


"les cons ça osent tous, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait" M.Audiard

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#26

Post by DrG » 02 Feb 2005, 22:31

Brem's, your lack of moderation is disturibing to say the least.
brem's wrote:this is a pure invention !
First, there is nothing in French archive, ALL open !
I would be surprised to find a document proving a criminal speech (thus something told, not written) made by a French general in a French archive...
Probably made by Corelli,a neo fascist, in 1966, to credite is text "Italia martire, sacrificio di un popolo".
Maybe Corelli, after a worthless novel and an even worse movie, is quite a fashonable surname, but he was Covelli, a monarchist deputy (not a Fascist), who made a speech in the Parliament in 1966 about the North African crimes in Italy. This was nothing exceptional nor new, it just reopened a debate started in 1944; and it wasn't even the first time it was debated in the Parliament (the first time it was in 1952, about the requestes of reparations made by raped women).
Moreover that book was not by Covelli, but by the Associazione Nazionale Vittime Civili di Guerra, an association of the Italian State (so much for the fascist propaganda...).
very nice exemple of historical falsification (JC NOTTIN, la campagne d'Italie, paris 2001, page 504)
How can you seriously imagine a french (or allied in general) general write that kind of text ! if it is thrue, all german general are serial killer !!!! if you now how Juin write, you will see that he write better than that awful text.
Well, it's told he made a speech, not that he wrote it. Anyway, this is a disputed fact, and probably false.
I work as student in history in sciences-po, in Paris, since 24 month on the battle of the Garigliano, and i never see a so ridiculous thing. Never any combat unit of CEF stay in a place for 50 hours because of the very speed rythm of the offensive, even in Esperia.
If you are a student of history, you should start to be quite cooler with what you study, not making rants like this post (by the way, it's Notin, not Nottin). And you are twisting facts: nobody has told that the CEF stood in a single place for 50 hours, but that allegedly Juin let it 50 hours of impunity.
Corelli speak of 60 000 rapes ! for a corps of 130 000 hommes : 1 rape for 2 soldiers! with that i think that russian soldiers in germany are little raper ! 8O
even 20 000 rapes, it make 1 rape for 6 soldiers !!!!!
Covelli was not the first to talk about the 60,000 rapes, a figure that anyway very probably is inflated (but this doesn't mean that mass rapes didn't happen).
i will never say that there were no rape, but all were given to "marocain", even when proving to be GI's ou Tommy's !
When were they proven to be British or American? How often? And why, if so, local population welcomes Americans, Britons and Poles but doesn't want North Africans during the cerimonies? It wasn't that difficult to distinguish an Anglo-Saxon or a Slav from an African; moreover the mass rapes and plunders all happened in the area of the CEF, and not elsewhere.
The Vatican is no more a good source, with is faction pro or anti nazis : what a beautiful surprise : muslims in Italy ; for sure they rape everybody !!! Cardinal Tisserand, worried about rumor say he was tranquilised by Juin and de Gaulle because judgement were given to raper.
Ah, well, so of course it was all a religious discrimination by the dark side of the Vatican... please, this is just the last excuse (well, not the last: when nothing else can be told, play the racism card). The Pope himself protested with the Allied command, and if it had been just for religious reasons, why not protest before the break-through Cassino and the following crimes (included the sodomy, torture and murder of the parish priest of Esperia; one may argue that the Muslims killed him not only for lust but also for religious reasons...)? Why wait months before asking to move the North Africans elsewhere? Maybe because meanwhile those troops had made a good amount of crimes? ;)
Marshall Gander, a journalist said the troops are well, and the only crime he ear was not morrocan's but GI's'(M. Gander, After this many quest, 1949).
Gander was a bit deaf if this was everithing he heared; N. Lewis, a British officer, had a different opinion; in his diary, published as "Neaples 1944" he wrote:
"May 28: New brutalizations of the French colonial troops. Every time they take a town or a village, the undiscriminated rape of the population follows. Recently all the women of Patrica, Pofi, Isoletta, Supino and Morolo have been raped. At Lesola, fallen into Allied hands on 21 May, they have raped 50 women, and since there weren't enough of them for everybody they raped also children, and even the elders. According to what is told, the Moroccans usually assail the women in pair: one has normal sex, while the other sodomizes her. In many cases the victims have suffered serious lesions to the genitals, the uterus, the rectum. At Castro dei Volsci the doctors have treated 300 victims of rape, and in Ceccano the English, to defend the Italian women, have been forced to create a camp watched by armed guards. Many of the North Africans have deserted and are attacking villages at a large distance from the lines. According to the last reports they have been in Afragola, adding a new terror to that already caused by the plunderers. Today I have been to meet a girl of Santa Maria a Vico that it was told became mad after the rape made by a numerous band of North Africans. She lives alone with the mother (she was repeatedly raped too) and in utter misery. Her conditions have improved, and she behaived in a reasonable way, with much grace, even though she was unable to walk because of the injuries suffered. Carabinieri and Police tell that according to the doctors she is mad, and that if there were a spare bed they would have hospitalized her in an asylum. It will be very difficult, now, that she will ever get a husband. We are in front of the bloody reality of that same horror that moved the entire female population of the towns of Macedonia to jump off precipices rather than fall in control of the Turkish invaders. A destiny worse than death: actually it was exactly this."
do you konw that in 1947, 15 000 lires were given, in Esperia, to everyone who denounce a morrocan crime ! what king of justice !! Even italian refugees crimes were given to morrocan (H. Nicholson, The wars years, t.2, 1967).
Italians (by the way: who gave that money?) had something better to do with their few money, than spend it for... what? Why there should have been a plot against those poor Moroccans? Do you know that instead the raped women had to wait years untill they got money from the govern as reparation (money that, it must be said, was given also from the French govern: an open admission of guilt)?
there was rape by morrocan, but they are not the only one, and numbers are impossible to give, but surely less than those given in the after-war Italy. Do you really think that a member so important of NATO will let Juin take command of all the force in central Europe in the beginning of 50's ! do you really thin that french or italian communist, so important at that time will let pass that ? don't be ridiculous !
Of course, as you admit, you haven't the slightest proof to say that it wasn't that bad; and the fact that some rapes were made by all the armies doesn't mean that they are even distantly comparable with the mass of rapes made by the North Africans. It's like to equate the murder of a few POWs, as happened in Sicily in 1943 for example, with the mass murders happened on the Eastern Front.
About Gen. Juin, given that he wasn't found guilty by any court and that even today his role is controversial, I'm not surprised. And if you knew that even German officers, who had made crimes in Italy during WW2, became important military leaders after WW2 because the Italian govern kept their past secret (M. Franzinelli, "L'armadio della vergogna", Mondadori, 2002) for diplmatic reasons, you wouldn't be surprised anymore.
And never forget that France was shoot in the back by his sister Italy in june 1940, bombarding Marseilles or Toulon : maybe french civilians death or less important than italian rape ! There 67 000 death by Allied bomber in France, but France was in the good side !!!! :roll:
And never forget that the French have already revenged that declaration of war (how melodramatic: "shoot in the back") in 1945, and with the peace treaty of 1947.
About the Italian bombings, not only they were tiny (and the French not-so-civil civilians lynched an Italian airman on 13 June 1940), but they were made only after your British ally had already bombed Italy flying over France. And you should know that also French airplanes bombed Italy, and that the French fleet (whose base was Toulon) bombarded the Ligurian coast, causing civilian deaths, on 13 June 1940.
Anyway, you should know that bombing is not a crime, while Moroccans didn't only rape but also murder (both crimes), and that if you feel that there was something criminal in the short and tiny airwar of June 1940 you have only to open a new thread and we'll debate it.
"les cons ça osent tous, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait" M.Audiard
Cons, what a rude word... Anyway, good sentence, well suited to your post.
Last edited by DrG on 02 Feb 2005, 23:08, edited 1 time in total.

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#27

Post by David Thompson » 02 Feb 2005, 23:07

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#28

Post by Igor Geiller » 19 Feb 2005, 20:06

I agree with Brem's about the so-called rapes made by the Morrocans. These charges are a form of racism towards the Moroccan troops. These men did not commit more crimes than the other allied soldiers. But the Morrocans were easy culprits, much of people had interest to accuse them of crimes that they had not committed.
In fact, during the campaign of Italy, the majority of the crimes is the fact of the Axis troops: for example the massacres of Boves (by Peiper and men of LSAH), of Marzabotto (by 16th SS division), of fosses Ardéatines ...

Regards
Igor, ex. student of history

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#29

Post by Panzermahn » 20 Feb 2005, 05:37

Igor Geiller wrote:I agree with Brem's about the so-called rapes made by the Morrocans. These charges are a form of racism towards the Moroccan troops. These men did not commit more crimes than the other allied soldiers. But the Morrocans were easy culprits, much of people had interest to accuse them of crimes that they had not committed.
In fact, during the campaign of Italy, the majority of the crimes is the fact of the Axis troops: for example the massacres of Boves (by Peiper and men of LSAH), of Marzabotto (by 16th SS division), of fosses Ardéatines ...

Regards
Igor, ex. student of history
It is a well known fact in Italy..Back in 1965, the French pay compensation to Italian victims of Esperia due to a courageous work by an Italian congressman..SO, not only the Axis commit war crimes in Italy but the Allies and the bolshevik partisans committed numerous war crimes in Italy..For example the massacre of German and Italian POWs by West and Compton...Massacre at Canicatti.....you want names of those killed by the partisans? Ostuf Charlemagne and me had many...

Back to Esperia....the priest who was raped and sodomized before being killed was Alberto Terulli....

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#30

Post by Igor Geiller » 21 Feb 2005, 19:37

Panzermahn wrote: It is a well known fact in Italy..Back in 1965, the French pay compensation to Italian victims of Esperia due to a courageous work by an Italian congressman.. (...)
Back to Esperia....the priest who was raped and sodomized before being killed was Alberto Terulli....
Could you tell me more about Esperia ? I did not find anything on this subject.

Thanks.
Igor

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