Captured Helferinnen used as sex slaves?

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Kunikov
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Re: Captured Helferinnen used as sex slaves?

Post by Kunikov » 03 Apr 2004 16:05

wildboar wrote:
They were handed over to NVKD by red-army as per stalin's decree.
What NVKD did to them is area of research.
What decree? Who was handed over?

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Post by David Thompson » 03 Apr 2004 17:15

Wildboar -- Posts which make claims, but have no evidence to support them get deleted here. We call them "rubbish posts." If you have any proof, include it when you post. Otherwise, the same thing will happen to your post that you claimed happened to the captured Helferinnen -- it will disappear.

Colonel SteelFist -- As I have told you before, this is a research area of the forum. The forum's purpose is not served by posters who present quotes out of context, or who daydream a scenario for which there is little or no evidence, and then fob it off on the readers as possibly true.

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Post by Vikki » 03 Apr 2004 18:53

Penn44 wrote: According to the official history of the International Committe of the Red Cross (ICRC), Doentiz discharged all German female service personnel the day before the war ended so that they would not have go into POW captivity. Whether this affected the POW status of German female military personnel already in captivity, I do not know.

Penn44
According to Siegfried Knappe's account in Soldat: Reflections of a German Soldier, 1936-1949 (pp. 404-5), some Helferinnen went into captivity anyway. Knappe was in the German General Staff Corps (Operations Officer of the LVI Panzer Corps under General Weidling) and involved in the surrender of Berlin under Weidling. Just before the surrender, he states that "the Russians had promised unimpeded travel" to women signal auxiliaries and Red Cross nurses (p.65). He describes meeting some Helferinnen later, on his return to Germany after nearly five years in a Russian camp:
When we arrived at the border between Poland and East Germany, we got our release papers. At the same time our train arrived there, another train arrived from somewhere else with women prisoners. That was the first contact we’d had with women, except for the Russian doctors in the prison camps. The women had been working in mines (even though the Russians had promised in Berlin when we surrendered that all the women would be allowed to go home). We had used thousands of female telephone operators in the signal corps, and the Russians had taken them to Siberia to work in the mines. They had spent the same number of years in much worse camps than we had been in. Although they were young women, they no longer looked it. They had not had enough food, and they had been worked hard, and none of them looked young or pretty, even to men who had not seen women in nearly five years.

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Post by Penn44 » 03 Apr 2004 20:40

Have any of the former German female POWs written of their POW experiences?


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Post by Vikki » 04 Apr 2004 23:29

Penn44 wrote:Have any of the former German female POWs written of their POW experiences?

Penn44
Most of the female POW accounts that I know of are by civilian German women rather than by Helferinnen. Their experiences run the gamut, from saying that they had "not so bad a time" to recounting terrible conditions and treatment. Here are a few that I could find with a quick look:

Alison Owings’ book Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich contains an interview with a Flakhelferin who spent three years after the war on a Russian farm. Although the account of her time in Russian captivity is really just a brief mention, there is a more detailed account in the same book of a civilian woman, Irene Burchert, who spent 1945-49 in a Russian work camp in Siberia. (Interestingly, she believed that she met Alexander Solzhenitsyn in her village before she was deported, and that his protests about what was being done in her and other nearby villages were the cause of his arrest.) In the same chapter, the author cites a work called Verschleppt, subtitled Women and Girls Deported from East Prussia to Siberia (published by the Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen, the East Prussian exile organization, in Hamburg about 1981), which gives accounts by former female inmates in Russian camps.

There is also an account by Brunhilde Pomsel, a secretary at the German radio network who spent nearly five years in Russian camps after the war, and most of that time, ironically, in the former German camp at Buchenwald (see Voices from the Third Reich: An Oral History by Steinhoff, Pechel, and Showalter).

Regarding one woman's account of capture and internment by the western Allies, there is Melita Maschmann's Account Rendered: A Dossier On My Former Self (Abelard-Schuman: 1964)---although perhaps strictly speaking, she should be considered a "war criminal", rather than a prisoner of war. I spent nearly a year trying to get a copy of this book, because the footnote I saw it cited in said that she was an SS-Helferin. She was not an SS-Helferin, but was the leader of the press department of the BDM. Her account of her experiences in this position, and of her RAD service and involvement in preparations for "Werewolf" activities in 1945, are fascinating. More to the point of the current thread, the last chapters of the book give an account of her capture in 1945, trial, and imprisonment by the Americans until 1948.

These are just citations for a few accounts that I could find quickly. If you're interested in details of their experiences, I'd be glad to supply them.

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Post by Tom Houlihan » 05 Apr 2004 00:24

Fraulein V, do any of those accounts support the titillating allegations presented here?

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Post by Vikki » 05 Apr 2004 04:26

Tom wrote:Fraulein V, do any of those accounts support the titillating allegations presented here?
As in a plan to “forcefully deport German auxiliaries to the Soviet Union to served in brothels for Soviet troops” to serve as “sex slaves,” as was suggested in the first post on this thread? Nope.

I wouldn’t pretend to have posted, or know, all the accounts of German women who were sent to Russian labor camps. Maybe just a representative sample. And I would be truly interested for my own research to know from Kunikov or Wildboar what Stalin’s and the Soviet Union’s intentions were, if they had any that are documented, for German female auxiliaries and/or civilians.

However, there are many, many personal accounts of individual rapes of German women by the Russians. And although it doesn’t deal directly with the main subject of this thread, I would offer one word of personal advice regarding German women’s accounts of the occupation by the Russians, or their time spent in camps. Don’t assume that because rape is not specifically mentioned in the retelling, rape didn’t occur. Women, particularly women of that generation, are very hesitant to speak of such events. In interviews I’ve read, and in a few that I’ve conducted, the women often gloss over the event. And sensitive interviewers sometimes omit the accounts, if they are given, from published versions. When questioned, even gently, but specifically, it may take a long pause before they answer, if they answer---sometimes a very long time, as was the case with Frau Burchert, if I may quote an example from Alison Owings’ book:
Frau Burchert delivered her testimony about the Soviet invasion of Tolnicken in such detail that the one subject she left out nearly screams its omission. The subject is rape. Individual rapes and gang rapes by Soviet soldiers of German women were so pervasive, it would have been an exception if any Grünwald (Frau Berchert’s maiden name---MY note) escaped. In fact, a documentary film calculates that at the end of the war at least two million German women were raped, the majority by Red Army soldiers. (The film is cited as Befreier und Befreite, which “reports considerable raping by soldiers of every other Allied force, except the British”---MY note, as quoted from the author’s footnote, I have no idea about the film.) Finally, without saying so directly, Frau Burchert indicated she was no exception. When the subject was neared, she whispered, “There are things I still do not talk about…..,” then dropped into inaudibility. In her 1992 letter, she brought up the subject herself, saying she was asked to write a report about her experiences for an East Prussian museum. “I determined that I would not speak about the worst thing that could happen to a woman, rape. Not in conversation with you, either. I must repress a lot in order, to some extent, to be able to live.”
See, Tom and Penn44? You ask me a simple question on some subjects, and you get a four-volume set!

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Post by Penn44 » 05 Apr 2004 06:05

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote: See, Tom and Penn44? You ask me a simple question on some subjects, and you get a four-volume set!
I appreciate the time and effort you gave in making your reply.

Have you published the results of your research?


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Post by Tom Houlihan » 05 Apr 2004 17:48

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:See, Tom and Penn44? You ask me a simple question on some subjects, and you get a four-volume set!
And I thank you for that! That sounds so much more logical than the tabloid sensationalism I've seen here. I have no doubt that thousands of women were raped, which is a tragedy. However, the 'recruiting' for brothels seemed a little far fetched to me.

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Post by fknorr » 06 Apr 2004 14:54

Tom wrote:I have no doubt that thousands of women were raped.
If the "at least 2 million" number of rapes is to be believed, that is a lot of thousands !

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Post by Tom Houlihan » 06 Apr 2004 15:22

fknorr wrote:If the "at least 2 million" number of rapes is to be believed, that is a lot of thousands !
I have absolutely no idea of how many women or girls suffered this violation. Is 2 million accurate? Maybe. Since the number wasn't my point, I chose the conservative 'thousands' as opposed to the possibility of an over-sensational 'millions.' Technically, anyway, it would be correct even if prosaically it may be misleading.

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Post by Kunikov » 06 Apr 2004 17:05

fknorr wrote:
Tom wrote:I have no doubt that thousands of women were raped.
If the "at least 2 million" number of rapes is to be believed, that is a lot of thousands !
It isn't to be believed.

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Post by Apocalypse_Now » 06 Apr 2004 17:17

It isn't to be believed.
Because? You say so?

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Post by David Thompson » 06 Apr 2004 17:26

Kunikov and Heinz Van Noon -- If either of you have figures and sources on the rapes, let's see them. It might be a good idea to collect the various estimates and references in one place.

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Post by Kunikov » 06 Apr 2004 17:35

Heinz VanNoon wrote:
It isn't to be believed.
Because? You say so?
I really can't prove what isn't documented. As I've already stated the number of 2 million is based on an estimate by one doctor, which could not be checked then nor, even more so, now.

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