Captured Helferinnen used as sex slaves?

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Vikki
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Post by Vikki » 02 May 2004 21:59

Two million seems a huge number, until one considers it statistically. If there were 35 million women in Germany at the end of the war (and I'm taking a higher number here, so the percentages will be conservative), two million is a little less than six per cent of the total. Not so high a percentage, in abstract, considering the prevalence of accounts of rape.

And I have a question for those of you who are more knowledgable in the protocols of POW treatment of the period than I am. Uniformed Helferinnen were granted combattant status, although quite late in the war, by an order of the OKW in August 1944. (Presumably this referred only to Helferinnen outside the Reich, since uniforms had been withdrawn from Auxiliaries within the Reich in the summer of 1942). As noted above, Doenitz released the Auxiliaries from duty the day before the war ended, perhaps thinking that this would prevent them from having to go into captivity as POWs. One wonders if this action is the true source of James Lucas’ statement that:
Soviet officers pointed out to them that they could not claim the protection of the Hague Convention, because, 'Even your own army says that you are not service personnel.'
I have often wondered: Did Doenitz do the Helferinnen a favor by this action, or just the opposite?

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Post by ancasta » 09 May 2004 21:48

Since the nice German army needed some female companionship on their retreat west into the hands of the allies, I think we can all assume they were responsible.
So, what colour is the sky on your planet Kunikov? I can assure you that there were indeed Russian rape gangs, and they justified this by telling the women that it was in revenge to what the Germans did to them. I know because my grandmother and her sisters [and friends who were captured with them] were indeed raped. My great aunt was so badly injured in the rape, and with the mental trauma ofterwards she commited suicide. Many women today are still too traumatised to talk about it, even after all these years, something that is in common with modern rape victims. Some soldiers rape during war. Its a sad, but heavily documented fact that applies up to Bosnia. This is why some countries today are still reluctant to have women soldiers serving on the frontline, in case they are captured. My relatives are now sadly dead, but if they were not I can assure you they would have replied here and put you straight. Please don't dismiss this darker side of the Russian army, Kunikov. And yes, I know other armies raped too. The Japanese raped Chinese girls for instance.

Recently, on British TV anyway, there have been a series of programmes featuring the Russian side of the story. One Russian said [and this was a woman] that everybody knew the rapes went on, but felt that the German woman 'deserved' it and so nothing was done to stop it. This programme about the fall of Berlin is repeated often on the UK history channel.

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Post by David Thompson » 09 May 2004 22:35

ancasta -- You said:
So, what colour is the sky on your planet Kunikov?
That sort of personalization in posting has led to "flame wars" in the past, so please avoid it.

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Post by ancasta » 09 May 2004 23:28

I apologise for the above, but as you can imagine I was quite annoyed. I heard first hand what my relatives went through, and some of their stories reduced people to tears, so please understand why I wrote it.

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Post by Kunikov » 10 May 2004 01:03

I never denied rapes took place, I simply put them into the context of the war. Do I feel sorry for those who were innocent? Sure, but more so I feel sorry for my family who lost dozens of it's members because of the fathers, brothers, and children of those women who supported their government and its policies. As to what the "Russian woman" said about the Rapes, there were plenty of orders coming down to stop them, and summary punishments and executions were ordered.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 May 2004 01:57

Kunikov -- You spoke of:
those women who supported their government and its policies.
While I sympathize with the sufferings of your family in WWII, I think your generalization is overbroad.

If, as you say, "there were plenty of orders coming down to stop them, and summary punishments and executions were ordered," there's no need to blame the rape victims. Certainly in the last three generations there have been examples of good people in your country, my country and Germany "who supported their government and its policies" only to find to their later shame, disgust and horror that they were unaware of some of the policies -- policies which were both secret and criminal.
Last edited by David Thompson on 10 May 2004 02:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 10 May 2004 02:00

David Thompson wrote:Kunikov -- You spoke of:
those women who supported their government and its policies.
While I sympathize with the sufferings of your family in WWII, I think your generalization is overbroad.
It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
If, as you say, "there were plenty of orders coming down to stop them, and summary punishments and executions were ordered," there's no need to blame the rape victims. There have been no shortage of examples in your country, my country and Germany of people "who supported their government and its policies" only to find to their later shame and horror that some of the policies were both secret and criminal.
Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are two totally separate government systems, as were their policies and how widespread knowledge of them was.

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Post by Vikki » 10 May 2004 02:27

Kunikov wrote: It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.

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Post by Kunikov » 10 May 2004 02:29

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote: It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.
Standing by and doing nothing doesn't make it better.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 May 2004 02:39

I think that the point is that there are very few people in this world who deserve to be raped, whether they're patriotic or not and without reference to what they know or don't know. "Justifying concepts" such as "collective guilt" and "collective justice" are primitive and barbarous throwbacks which are repugnant to intelligent and humane values. For those reasons, I just want to be sure that no one misunderstands our remarks here.

When committed by soldiers, the act of rape is a war crime and the knowing refusal of commanders to punish rapists is a war crime as well. If the Soviet government made sure that "there were plenty of orders coming down to stop them, and summary punishments and executions were ordered," they obviously felt the same way.

Let's move on.

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Post by Vikki » 10 May 2004 02:49

Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote: It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.
Standing by and doing nothing doesn't make it better.
As was also the case in Stalin's Soviet Union, doing "something" against the régime in Nazi Germany could be extremely dangerous for the average person. Not simply to oneself, but to one's family and acquaintances as well.

It is the ultimate in historical arrogance to look back with sixty years' hindsight, and safety, and judge people of that time for lack of courage.

Can you truly say what you would have done?

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Post by Kunikov » 10 May 2004 02:52

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote: It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.
Standing by and doing nothing doesn't make it better.
As was also the case in Stalin's Soviet Union, doing "something" against the régime in Nazi Germany could be extremely dangerous for the average person. Not simply to oneself, but to one's family and acquaintances as well.

It is the ultimate in historical arrogance to look back with sixty years' hindsight, and safety, and judge people of that time for lack of courage.

Can you truly say what you would have done?
Sure, I would have been either working in a labor camp or dead in a concentration camp, because I am in fact a Slavic Jew, could I get any worse for the great reich? As for what they could do, there were opposition groups in Nazi Germany and protests, that they could have done. Did they? Not to any considerable degree, the Soviet Union cannot be compared.

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Post by Vikki » 10 May 2004 03:30

Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote: It is a generalization, but if one is to believe that '2 million' were rapped, do you think all 2 million, living in Berlin, the capital, had no idea of the policies of their country?
Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.
Standing by and doing nothing doesn't make it better.
As was also the case in Stalin's Soviet Union, doing "something" against the régime in Nazi Germany could be extremely dangerous for the average person. Not simply to oneself, but to one's family and acquaintances as well.

It is the ultimate in historical arrogance to look back with sixty years' hindsight, and safety, and judge people of that time for lack of courage.

Can you truly say what you would have done?
Sure, I would have been either working in a labor camp or dead in a concentration camp, because I am in fact a Slavic Jew, could I get any worse for the great reich? As for what they could do, there were opposition groups in Nazi Germany and protests, that they could have done. Did they? Not to any considerable degree, the Soviet Union cannot be compared.

The treatment meted out to those opposition groups, from General Staff officers involved in the July 20 plot to the students of the White Rose organization, proves my point exactly. Involvement in opposition was dangerous, and beyond most average people's abilities---and courage.

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Post by Kunikov » 10 May 2004 03:35

Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote:
Kunikov wrote:
Fraulein Valkyrie wrote: Being aware of one's country's policies and supporting them (and thus being "guilty" by your apparent definition) are two very different things.
Standing by and doing nothing doesn't make it better.
As was also the case in Stalin's Soviet Union, doing "something" against the régime in Nazi Germany could be extremely dangerous for the average person. Not simply to oneself, but to one's family and acquaintances as well.

It is the ultimate in historical arrogance to look back with sixty years' hindsight, and safety, and judge people of that time for lack of courage.

Can you truly say what you would have done?
Sure, I would have been either working in a labor camp or dead in a concentration camp, because I am in fact a Slavic Jew, could I get any worse for the great reich? As for what they could do, there were opposition groups in Nazi Germany and protests, that they could have done. Did they? Not to any considerable degree, the Soviet Union cannot be compared.

The treatment meted out to those opposition groups, from General Staff officers involved in the July 20 plot to the students of the White Rose organization, proves my point exactly. Involvement in opposition was dangerous, and beyond most average people's abilities---and courage.
But they existed, perhaps if the country hadn't of turned a blind eye to Hitler's ideas and policies toward 'undesireables' things might have turned out different.

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Post by David Thompson » 10 May 2004 03:45

For the second time -- let's move on.

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