Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

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fknorr
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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#16

Post by fknorr » 06 Apr 2004, 16:34

redcoat wrote:You fail to mention the Eric Giese was in fact a German destroyer sunk in the 2nd Battle of Narvik :roll: , and that the military crew were attacked while attemping to reach the shore-line to join up with their forces on the shore, so while the British action might have not been 'nice' it was legitimate.
Wouldn't the first thoughts of these German sailors be to not die in the water as opposed to "joining up" with forces on the shore?

My first thought would be surviving the sinking, after I dry out a bit maybe then thinking of grabbing a weapon....

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#17

Post by redcoat » 06 Apr 2004, 18:54

fknorr wrote:
redcoat wrote:You fail to mention the Eric Giese was in fact a German destroyer sunk in the 2nd Battle of Narvik :roll: , and that the military crew were attacked while attemping to reach the shore-line to join up with their forces on the shore, so while the British action might have not been 'nice' it was legitimate.
Wouldn't the first thoughts of these German sailors be to not die in the water as opposed to "joining up" with forces on the shore?
My first thought would be surviving the sinking, after I dry out a bit maybe then thinking of grabbing a weapon....
The first part of your statement shows why I said the actions of RN weren't 'nice'. The second part of the statement shows why I said the actions were legitimate.

The situation is no different than shooting at an enemy soldier abandoning a KO'd tank or running away from the battlefield during a battle, not 'nice' but legitimate.


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#18

Post by redcoat » 06 Apr 2004, 19:16

panzermahn wrote:Unlike the Kriegsmarine who rescued down british sailors...
Good example, the sinking of Gloworm by Admiral Hipper..Captain Heye conducted a rescue operations for 2 hours to rescue the british sailors..
Bad example, the sinking of HMS Glorious, and her escort HMS Acasta and Ardent by the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during the same Narvik Campaign.
After they had sunk all 3 ships the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau left the scene of the battle, without making any attempt to pick up any of the hundreds of British sailors left in the freezing water. Only 46 sailors out of 1,561 officers and men survived.

However unlike 'panzermahn' who doesn't seem to understand the rules of war at sea the RN does, this is why the British have never claimed this act as a war crime, they know war isn't nice.

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#19

Post by fknorr » 06 Apr 2004, 19:53

redcoat wrote:The situation is no different than shooting at an enemy soldier abandoning a KO'd tank or running away from the battlefield during a battle, not 'nice' but legitimate.
Just a question but weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?

HHHHHHHhmmmmmmmm?

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#20

Post by redcoat » 06 Apr 2004, 21:17

fknorr wrote:
redcoat wrote:The situation is no different than shooting at an enemy soldier abandoning a KO'd tank or running away from the battlefield during a battle, not 'nice' but legitimate.
Just a question but weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?

HHHHHHHhmmmmmmmm?
No :roll:
The only time any soldier could face a charge of war crime for a battlefield killing is if they killed a uniformed soldier/sailor attempting to surrender or who had already surrendered, or civilians making no attempt to resist.
Any uniformed soldier or sailor who is only attempting to escape and not surrender is a legitimate target.
The only U-Boat crew to be charged with a war crime, were guilty of shooting an unarmed civilian crew who were making no attempt to escape or resist. and even this is a disputed case.

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#21

Post by David Thompson » 06 Apr 2004, 22:41

fknorr -- You wrote:
redcoat wrote:
The situation is no different than shooting at an enemy soldier abandoning a KO'd tank or running away from the battlefield during a battle, not 'nice' but legitimate.


Just a question but weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?

HHHHHHHhmmmmmmmm?
The primary goals of this section of the forum are to exchange facts and conduct informed and civil discussions. If you have evidence that German sailors were "brought up on war crimes for just the same thing," post it and spare us the cute hints.

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#22

Post by Andreas » 06 Apr 2004, 23:07

redcoat wrote:The only time any soldier could face a charge of war crime for a battlefield killing is if they killed a uniformed soldier/sailor attempting to surrender or who had already surrendered, or civilians making no attempt to resist.
Redcoat, I am not a lawyer, and not at all versed in the Hague and Geneva conventions. From reading Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war', and his discussion on the legality of shooting enemies trying to surrender, I came away with the impression that shooting a soldier who is attempting to surrender is not necessarily a crime, namely when the acceptance of the surrender places risks on the soldier to whom the surrender is offered. This to me read as if there is no blanket statement that forces a soldier to accept a surrender by an enemy, but that it depends on the specific situation. E.g. if you have to expose yourself, if you believe the surrender is fake, if you can not handle the POW without a threat to your own force, etc., then refusing the surrender (i.e. shooting the poor bastard, or telling him to go and get stuffed), would not lead to a charge for committing a war crime.

I believe that there was also a provision for forces who can not cater for POWs (e.g. cut off behind enemy lines), but am not sure what that entailed.

Can someone clarify this for me please - had there been changes to these rules between the wars?

Clearly, shooting an enemy POW, i.e. after accepting surrender, is a different matter entirely.

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#23

Post by fknorr » 06 Apr 2004, 23:31

David Thompson wrote:If you have evidence that German sailors were "brought up on war crimes for just the same thing," post it and spare us the cute hints.
Didn't you say that you knew of five or more Kriegsmarine sailors brought up on war crimes?

Since you have the data at hand, maybe you could enlighten us?

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#24

Post by David Thompson » 07 Apr 2004, 00:51

fknorr -- You asked:
Didn't you say that you knew of five or more Kriegsmarine sailors brought up on war crimes?

Since you have the data at hand, maybe you could enlighten us?
In a post on another thread, I spoke of war crimes charges against Kriegsmarine officers, and listed several examples. The officers involved were "sailors" only in the broadest sense of the term, nor were they "brought up on war crimes for just the same thing," as you put it. As I noted in that post, almost all cases where Kriegsmarine officers were put on trial for war crimes involved incidents arising out of duty on land.

Let's get this straight, in case there is any question in your mind about it. You asked someone else:
Just a question but weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?

HHHHHHHhmmmmmmmm?
You were then asked to post proof, if you had any, and spare the readers the cute hints that maybe you knew something that they didn't. Your response to me was:
Since you have the data at hand, maybe you could enlighten us? [emphasis added]
Now that you're enlightened, avoid the future embarassment that will come from suggesting you know something you don't. This is a research section of the forum, not a place to try to get a game of "bluff" poker going. Because this sort of behavior undercuts the primary purpose of the forum and is also disruptive, I suggest you do not try it again.

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#25

Post by fknorr » 07 Apr 2004, 04:00

avoid the future embarassment that will come from suggesting you know something you don't....Because this sort of behavior undercuts the primary purpose of the forum and is also disruptive, I suggest you do not try it again
Isn't this the same kind of "quote" in posts you admonish us for and ultimately censor?

I am not embarrassed at all my man, but another poster should be (embarrassed) because of his atrocious spelling while attacking me.
(you failed to notice that though, the attack not the spelling.)

Let's see....can I come up w/some information to appease my many detractors...keep in mind I only have two (2) books devoted to the Kriegsmarine.

Well first of all here is another case of helping the German get to heaven by the Allies...

Case 1, KC winner Lemp, commander of U-110 was machine gunned in the water. It says that the destroyers Bulldog and Broadway destroyed the sub but somehow he was killed while swimming back trying to scuttle his boat." Odd, the two destroyers "destroy the boat but somehow he is killed swimming back to scuttle...did he announce his intentions I wonder or just forget his wallet? We'll never know, huh?

Case 2, another KC w/Oakleaves winner Werner Henke taken back to Ft Meade, according to the reference a secret Interrogation camp...I will let you decide, but "shot while trying to escape" (wink wink)

(both of the above from KC Holders of the U-Boat Service, Franz Kurowski)

Here is a link to Submarine atrocities by all sides (Sorry Heinz):
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/3166/

what is funny is they list many U-Boat atrocities but according to this"Heinz Eck and 2 of his crew were executed after the war, the only U-boat commander to be even tried for war crimes.":
http://www.uboat.net/boats/u852.htm

So indeed fellows I have backed up my little accusations w/source material (sorry Heinz) that shows indeed that GERMANS were executed (sorry only three that I have found thus far but I only have 2 books) for the same "crime" as the allied sailor got away with. Let's also remember the Wahoo who could've murdered up to 6,000 Japanese soldiers/sailors (shooting them in the water after their transport was sunk), but as someone so eloquently put it in another thread "the circumstances of the incident have not been established beyond a reasonable doubt." Gee, seems awfully simple to me...sub fires torpedo, transport sinks, Japs alive in the water, Japs dead in the water...sub leaves (though a little lighter because of spent ammo.) Where is the mystery?

Top my stuff above off w/Donitz being tried as a war criminal for basically nothing that all the other submarine commanders didn't do and one of my other posts where "U-Boat sailors" were segregated in the POW camps along w/SS & Falschirmjager for additional punishment (additional years of internment)...and I have proved my point, backed my position that Germans (regardless of Branch of service), were punished (some executed) for the same stuff we did every day too... some people deny it, and others here do not care.

I for one believe a "sin is a sin" regardless, which I do believe fits in "perfectly" with this "apolitical" forum...or is it "apolitical" as long as you believe like you do?

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#26

Post by David Thompson » 07 Apr 2004, 04:57

fknorr -- I suggested that you:
avoid the future embarassment that will come from suggesting you know something you don't....Because this sort of behavior undercuts the primary purpose of the forum and is also disruptive, I suggest you do not try it again
You replied:
Isn't this the same kind of "quote" in posts you admonish us for and ultimately censor?
As a matter of fact, it isn't. It's the kind of thing a moderator might say if he needed to point out a shortcoming in a poster's behavior and why it should be avoided.

You went on to say:
I am not embarrassed at all my man, but another poster should be (embarrassed) because of his atrocious spelling while attacking me.
(you failed to notice that though, the attack not the spelling.)
Your own spelling is hardly an example to us all. However, the criticism was directed at your presumption and shiftiness in suggesting you knew something that others did not, when in fact you didn't.

You then said:
Let's see....can I come up w/some information to appease my many detractors...keep in mind I only have two (2) books devoted to the Kriegsmarine.

Well first of all here is another case of helping the German get to heaven by the Allies...

Case 1, KC winner Lemp, commander of U-110 was machine gunned in the water. It says that the destroyers Bulldog and Broadway destroyed the sub but somehow he was killed while swimming back trying to scuttle his boat." Odd, the two destroyers "destroy the boat but somehow he is killed swimming back to scuttle...did he announce his intentions I wonder or just forget his wallet? We'll never know, huh?

Case 2, another KC w/Oakleaves winner Werner Henke taken back to Ft Meade, according to the reference a secret Interrogation camp...I will let you decide, but "shot while trying to escape" (wink wink)

(both of the above from KC Holders of the U-Boat Service, Franz Kurowski)

Here is a link to Submarine atrocities by all sides (Sorry Heinz):
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/3166/
All of this is wide of the mark. You were asked about something entirely different, namely, to provide proof for this statement, if you had any, and spare the readers the cute hints that maybe you knew something that they didn't:
Just a question but weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?

HHHHHHHhmmmmmmmm?


You then have this to say:
what is funny is they [U-Boat Net] list many U-Boat atrocities but according to this"Heinz Eck and 2 of his crew were executed after the war, the only U-boat commander to be even tried for war crimes.":
http://www.uboat.net/boats/u852.htm
and conclude:
So indeed fellows I have backed up my little accusations w/source material (sorry Heinz) that shows indeed that GERMANS were executed (sorry only three that I have found thus far but I only have 2 books) for the same "crime" as the allied sailor got away with.
Not so fast. Your little accusation was: "weren't German sailors brought up on war crimes for just the same thing?" (emphasis added). You haven't proved up the identical crime. The fact that Germans, or even German naval officers, may have been executed doesn't prove your point.

You end with a series of irrelevant and false observations: (1)
Let's also remember the Wahoo who could've murdered up to 6,000 Japanese soldiers/sailors (shooting them in the water after their transport was sunk), but as someone so eloquently put it in another thread "the circumstances of the incident have not been established beyond a reasonable doubt." Gee, seems awfully simple to me...sub fires torpedo, transport sinks, Japs alive in the water, Japs dead in the water...sub leaves (though a little lighter because of spent ammo.) Where is the mystery?
The "mystery" that you seem unable to fathom is whether the incident happened as you have described it. What may appear simple to you may appear simple-minded to another.

(2)
Top my stuff above off w/Donitz being tried as a war criminal for basically nothing that all the other submarine commanders didn't do and one of my other posts where "U-Boat sailors" were segregated in the POW camps along w/SS & Falschirmjager for additional punishment (additional years of internment)...and I have proved my point, backed my position that Germans (regardless of Branch of service), were punished (some executed) for the same stuff we did every day too... some people deny it, and others here do not care.
Your point about Doenitz "being tried as a war criminal for basically nothing that all the other submarine commanders didn't do" applied to only one of a number of charges against him, and, as it happened, the IMT acquitted him on that one. As for proving your point, you haven't gotten there yet.

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#27

Post by fknorr » 07 Apr 2004, 05:08

David you are 100% right :roll:

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#28

Post by fknorr » 07 Apr 2004, 05:24

I will not nit pick your post (although you gave me plenty to speak on) but tell me this, obviously I am not the mental giant you are...
You haven't proved up the identical crime.
How was Eck and two other U-boat officers brought up on charges (and put to death), for Machine gunning the torpedoed Greek sailors not the same as the British machine gunning the German sailors?

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#29

Post by redcoat » 07 Apr 2004, 19:21

fknorr wrote: Let's see....can I come up w/some information to appease my many detractors...keep in mind I only have two (2) books devoted to the Kriegsmarine.
Well first of all here is another case of helping the German get to heaven by the Allies...
Case 1, KC winner Lemp, commander of U-110 was machine gunned in the water. It says that the destroyers Bulldog and Broadway destroyed the sub but somehow he was killed while swimming back trying to scuttle his boat." Odd, the two destroyers "destroy the boat but somehow he is killed swimming back to scuttle...did he announce his intentions I wonder or just forget his wallet? We'll never know, huh?

Case 2, another KC w/Oakleaves winner Werner Henke taken back to Ft Meade, according to the reference a secret Interrogation camp...I will let you decide, but "shot while trying to escape" (wink wink)
fknorr, if you are trying to prove something you are going to have to come up with something better than these two cases. :roll:

Case 1, Lemp if he was shot while attempting to swim back to the sub, its no war crime. He's a uniformed officer attempting to resist so its a legitimate action in shooting him.
However his crew are unaware of him being shot, all they know is that he disappeared during the time they were in the water before they were rescued after he found out the code books were still in the U-boat and it was about to be boarded.
I know of no eyewitnesses to him being shot. At least one of his crewmen considers he committed suicide because of the shame by swimming away from rescue.

Case 2, if Henke was shot while attempting to escape, where's the war-crime?

fknorr it would help your argument if you dropped the silly 'wink wink' stuff and gave us some hard facts
Last edited by redcoat on 07 Apr 2004, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#30

Post by redcoat » 07 Apr 2004, 20:28

Andreas wrote: Redcoat, I am not a lawyer, and not at all versed in the Hague and Geneva conventions. From reading Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war', and his discussion on the legality of shooting enemies trying to surrender, I came away with the impression that shooting a soldier who is attempting to surrender is not necessarily a crime,
You are correct Andreas :)
The shooting of enemies trying to surrender is indeed a large 'grey area' and whether it was a war crime or not does depends to a large extent on how good your lawers are, or if your side won or not :roll:

However in my reply I did state it was only something which a soldier could face a charge of commiting a war crime, not would :wink:

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