Polish troops in Falaise

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#46

Post by David Thompson » 20 Jul 2008, 22:41

It has been unlawful since at least 1899 to order troops not to take prisoners ("It is especially prohibited . . . To declare that no quarter will be given"). What the troops actually do on their own is something else. As a practical matter, the offense is difficult to prove in individual cases, because without a declaration that no prisoners will be taken, there's always the defense of mistake or inadvertence ("the oops defense").

1899 Hague II Convention Annex, Article 23
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... .htm#art23
1907 Hague IV Convention Annex, Article 23
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... .htm#art23

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#47

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 21 Jul 2008, 03:31

David Thompson wrote:It has been unlawful since at least 1899 to order troops not to take prisoners ("It is especially prohibited . . . To declare that no quarter will be given"). What the troops actually do on their own is something else. As a practical matter, the offense is difficult to prove in individual cases, because without a declaration that no prisoners will be taken, there's always the defense of mistake or inadvertence ("the oops defense")....

Do not get it wrong way but if you go outside (if you live in town or city) with your rifle, you be shot with no pardon by authorities, your own countrymen. You do not need even to be armed, just passive aggressive and if you are large male, appear crazy or doped, you also be shot.
Like I said before, it is on discretion of individual soldier/CO to determine when surrendering troop pose thread and when not.
To paraphrase SCOTUS that declared Constitution ain't suicide pact, so ain`t Hague Convention.
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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#48

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 21 Jul 2008, 03:46

Kieran Bridge wrote:I tend to agree with you, but I suppose it is a matter of interpretation of the events. Others might take a different view. My point is that there are no clear lines between what is lawful and what is not.

I used to have gentlemen like view on the issue, before I talked to actual combat (not only military) survivors and listened to psychologists opinions.
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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#49

Post by Penn44 » 21 Jul 2008, 06:06

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:Like I said before, it is on discretion of individual soldier/CO to determine when surrendering troop pose thread and when not.
To paraphrase SCOTUS that declared Constitution ain't suicide pact, so ain`t Hague Convention.
Except in cases of the criminally insane, it is always the "discretion" of the individual performing the act on whether they act or not. It is the discretion of the murder whether he murders, the baker whether he bakes, the school teacher whether she teaches. Many factors should and must be considered.

To write off all actions that occur in combat as inherently unfathomable due to its chaotic nature or outside the legitimate consideration/analysis of those who were not there or those who are not combat veterans is to forfeit the responsibility of the person who can and should analyze the situation in question.

Penn44

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#50

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 21 Jul 2008, 07:18

Penn44 wrote:
Except in cases of the criminally insane, it is always the "discretion" of the individual performing the act on whether they act or not. It is the discretion of the murder whether he murders, the baker whether he bakes, the school teacher whether she teaches. Many factors should and must be considered.

To write off all actions that occur in combat as inherently unfathomable due to its chaotic nature or outside the legitimate consideration/analysis of those who were not there or those who are not combat veterans is to forfeit the responsibility of the person who can and should analyze the situation in question.

Penn44

.
I`m talking about matter of the law and criminal responsibility.

I would strongly advice you, to familiarise yourself with deadly force use policy of police department in your jurisdiction and cases of clearing officer involved "bad" shootings. You are not impressing anybody here.
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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#51

Post by Penn44 » 21 Jul 2008, 07:34

Hauptmann Kloss wrote:I`m talking about matter of the law and criminal responsibility.

I would strongly advice you, to familiarise yourself with deadly force use policy of police department in your jurisdiction and cases of clearing officer involved "bad" shootings. You are not impressing anybody here.
We are talking actions in war here, and not police actions in a civil situation. I would strong advise you to orient yourself to the appropriate setting in which are discussing, and then drop your attitude.

Penn44

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#52

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 21 Jul 2008, 13:19

Penn44 wrote:....

We are talking actions in war here, and not police actions in a civil situation. I would strong advise you to orient yourself to the appropriate setting in which are discussing, and then drop your attitude...

I`m pointing you to the familiar, well documented settings with rich case history on your OWN backyard, which can bring you to understanding of reality, legality people in combat face. Court and administrative proceedings decisions are numerous with benefits of peace time investigative techniques.

With that new acquired knowledge you be better prepared to appreciate severity of "actions in war" as opposed to "civil situation". You can move even further and look at latest, well publicised cases and judgements of US military courts.
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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#53

Post by David Thompson » 21 Jul 2008, 15:32

Hauptmann Kloss -- You wrote:
Do not get it wrong way but if you go outside (if you live in town or city) with your rifle, you be shot with no pardon by authorities, your own countrymen. You do not need even to be armed, just passive aggressive and if you are large male, appear crazy or doped, you also be shot.
and
I`m pointing you to the familiar, well documented settings with rich case history on your OWN backyard, which can bring you to understanding of reality, legality people in combat face. Court and administrative proceedings decisions are numerous with benefits of peace time investigative techniques.
(1) The discussion topic is Polish troops in the Falaise gap fighting, not civil police practice.

(2) Your generalizations on police practice in the United States are grossly inaccurate, to the point of being insulting.

(3) If you have sourced information on war crimes involving the Polish units in the Falaise area, you are invited to post it. However, further off-topic posts will be removed, pursuant to the forum and section rules.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#54

Post by Hauptmann Kloss » 21 Jul 2008, 17:58

David Thompson wrote:Hauptmann Kloss -- You wrote:
Do not get it wrong way but if you go outside (if you live in town or city) with your rifle, you be shot with no pardon by authorities, your own countrymen. You do not need even to be armed, just passive aggressive and if you are large male, appear crazy or doped, you also be shot.
and
I`m pointing you to the familiar, well documented settings with rich case history on your OWN backyard, which can bring you to understanding of reality, legality people in combat face. Court and administrative proceedings decisions are numerous with benefits of peace time investigative techniques.
(1) The discussion topic is Polish troops in the Falaise gap fighting, not civil police practice.

(2) Your generalizations on police practice in the United States are grossly inaccurate, to the point of being insulting.

(3) If you have sourced information on war crimes involving the Polish units in the Falaise area, you are invited to post it. However, further off-topic posts will be removed, pursuant to the forum and section rules.

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962
Dear Sir! Please stop this!
Topic of this thread is not "Polish troops in Falaise gap fighting", that is a title. Topic is alleged war crimes committed by Polish troops during that fighting!
All my post were exactly on topic, moreover burden of proof what constitute unlawful killing in the war zone and proof if alleged unlawful killing happened is on you and whomever give it a nod here.
And no, quoting what Hague protocol says is not a proof.
As I said before, studying policy and practice of use of deadly force by civilian authorities gives excellent condition to discussing similar situations occurring in war zones. I bring US for simple reason, their civilian policies are closest to those used in war zones for any modern nation I know. In addition legal system is quite robust and case load is abundant.

Lastly, if you feel insulted by well documented police practices of use of deadly force in United States (like last big court case acquitting number of police officers tried for opening fire on group of unarmed men in New York, killing one, wounding three) rightfully so. I also feel insulted by some of those practices.
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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#55

Post by David Thompson » 21 Jul 2008, 19:18

Hauptmann Kloss -- You wrote:
Lastly, if you feel insulted by well documented police practices of use of deadly force in United States (like last big court case acquitting number of police officers tried for opening fire on group of unarmed men in New York, killing one, wounding three) rightfully so. I also feel insulted by some of those practices.
Civil police practices which don't amount to war crimes are off-topic in this section of the forum, and your generalizations from some incidents to national police practices in the US are inaccurate, as I have already stated. I don't intend to argue or negotiate with you about it. You are welcome to post sourced, on-topic facts and arguments which comply with the forum and section rules. If you don't comply with the forum and section rules, I will remove your non-complying posts.

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#56

Post by lohengrin » 12 Dec 2009, 02:05

I just saw this discussion (or argument) on Wikipedia - see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1st_A ... n_(Poland) .....

And I am curious any developments in this case?

Clara

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#57

Post by David Thompson » 12 Dec 2009, 15:58

An off-topic flamebait post from Starace was removed by the moderator - DT.

Starace -- Please review the forum and section rules before posting here again. They are posted for all to see at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

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Re:

#58

Post by waldzee » 06 Mar 2012, 01:55

deleted by author
Last edited by waldzee on 06 Mar 2012, 07:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#59

Post by David Thompson » 06 Mar 2012, 02:01

waldzee -- There's not much point in responding to an eight year old post (see the original at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 20#p424320 and check the date -- April 9, 2004).

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Re: Polish troops in Falaise

#60

Post by waldzee » 06 Mar 2012, 02:10

David Thompson wrote:waldzee -- There's not much point in responding to an eight year old post (see the original at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 20#p424320 and check the date -- April 9, 2004).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry David! The date escaped me. You are very right.
Perhaps a new thread on operation Luttrich & its aftermath is in order?
Contents cleared moved to Newer falaise post
thanks
Reg

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