SS-Leibstandarte at Wormhoudt 1940

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Englander
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 21:55
Location: Blighty

SS-Leibstandarte at Wormhoudt 1940

#1

Post by Englander » 10 May 2004, 22:20

panzermahn wrote:In fact, SS vets said that the Wormhoundt atrocity is unproven and alleged to discredit the Waffen SS
So sorry that i accused your beloved waffen ss, of a fictitious crime!

So this man is a liar!
Survivor Bert Evans, who had an arm shattered by a stick grenade but survived that and being brought out of the barn and shot, was still battling in 2000:
This Memorial should be raised to the ground!

Image

This tree to be eradicated!

Image

This brave warrior should have a full written apology!

Image

Ok, you convinced me. Where can i buy your book? Who knows, it might come in handy when i'm on the bog.

Image

User avatar
wright61
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 20:01
Location: UK

#2

Post by wright61 » 10 May 2004, 23:35

Well said Englander I sometimes get the impression that we should offer the SS a full apology for my English grandfather and other veterans fighting them in WW2. He really enjoyed being away from home not seeing his son and being in Berlin till 1946 :roll: , while the Aryan Gods stomped around Europe demonstrating their martial prowess and then crying like ******* when they were beaten. :roll: Their :x (the SS) apologists really **** me off,my mother remembers the Germans coming to the farm and taking chickens ,bread etc from them,her father had to flee to the mountains because the germans were taking the men from the farms to work in Germany. I have no sympathy for any German SS veteran [additional and profane sentiments deleted by moderator - DT] . My Grandfather was with the Desert Rats in Europe he saw the camps first hand ,after the war ended he helped hunt down SS men for trial,he never mentioned it till I said I liked SS uniforms then he got very upset ,but he didnt tell me grandma did ,he didnt want to talk about it.

[This post was edited by the moderator to bring it into compliance with the forum goal of providing intelligent and learned discussions of historical events - DT]


Panzermahn
Member
Posts: 3639
Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 04:51
Location: Malaysia

#3

Post by Panzermahn » 11 May 2004, 13:59

Englander,

You still havent answer my question, why didn't the British Government persecute any Germans connected to the alleged Wormhoundt atrocity when they were so successful in persecuting other German war criminals?

First of all, i never said that the there is no such as thing as the massacre at the Wormhoundt..I only said the author George Duncan mentioned that there is lack of evidence regarding this alleged atrocity.....And i mentioned Waffen SS veterans stated that this was an fabricated atrocity to tarnished the Waffen SS reputations..I never said that i believe those veterans...

But i find it peculiar that among many atrocities committed by the Waffen SS troops against the Western Allied forces, they denied this atrocity when they could have deny other atrocities like Malmedy, Le Paradis, Oradour Sur Glane

User avatar
wright61
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 20:01
Location: UK

#4

Post by wright61 » 11 May 2004, 14:36

panzermahn wrote:Englander,

You still havent answer my question, why didn't the British Government persecute any Germans connected to the alleged Wormhoundt atrocity when they were so successful in persecuting other German war criminals?

First of all, i never said that the there is no such as thing as the massacre at the Wormhoundt..I only said the author George Duncan mentioned that there is lack of evidence regarding this alleged atrocity.....And i mentioned Waffen SS veterans stated that this was an fabricated atrocity to tarnished the Waffen SS reputations..I never said that i believe those veterans...

But i find it peculiar that among many atrocities committed by the Waffen SS troops against the Western Allied forces, they denied this atrocity when they could have deny other atrocities like Malmedy, Le Paradis, Oradour Sur Glane
Is this a joke!!! german war criminals were PROSECUTED not PERSECUTED. And after Le Paradis, Malmedy,Oradour sur Glane I dont think the allies would need to fabricate an atrocity to tarnish the "REPUTATION ":roll: :roll: :roll: of the SS,they probably denied it because the lack of evidence allows them to deny it I am sure they would deny the others if they could.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#5

Post by David Thompson » 11 May 2004, 17:10

robert.wright46 -- As you can see, I have edited one of your posts to remove some profane expressions. The purpose of the forum is to exchange information and promote reasoned discussions of historical issues. "Swearing" adds neither relevant information nor logical force to a line of reasoning -- it is only an attempt to emphasize the opinion.

For that reason, the purpose of providing an historical research forum is not served by the practice of punctuation by curses.

User avatar
wright61
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 20:01
Location: UK

#6

Post by wright61 » 11 May 2004, 18:19

Dear David you are right. I offer you, as the host ,and all members of the forum a full and unreserved apology

User avatar
Englander
Member
Posts: 677
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 21:55
Location: Blighty

#7

Post by Englander » 12 May 2004, 00:46

Just to correct the title header. The "alleged" culprits were the Leibstandarte.

I never said that i believe those veterans...
Panzermahn, your not back peddling by any chance are you? Because you said this,
Apart from Le Paradis, the Waffen SS men never shoot any surrendering British troops in large numbers (50+) anywhere in WW2
Panzermahn, before i answer your question, read this quote from another survivor...
I struggled to my feet and a lad about nineteen with a Birmingham accent helped me. We shook hands and took our places. He was at number four, I was at number five.

The officer gave the command. "Eins"! A shot. After what seemed an eternity (in reality, about two seconds), "Zwei!" and another shot. It was sur­prisingly easy to show no panic. I could only stand on my good leg so movement was impossible. The situation was so hopeless that it was almost a relief to think that it would soon be over.

"Drei!" The third rifle fired and despatched its victim. I tried to concentrate my thoughts on my past life and on my family.

'Vier!" The fourth rifle fired and I saw from the corner of my eye the boy with the Birmingham accent fall. My mind was buzzing with half-remembered sights and sounds. My father practising the 'cello; the cricket nets on the middle playground at Colfe's; the smell of the fats and rags and bones in my uncle's Marine Store at Margate.

'Funf" It was just like a sharp blow from a fist in my chest that knocked me over. As I hit the ground everything left my mind except the sen­sation of raging thirst and the certainty that I was dead.

When I opened my eyes I saw the grass and the khaki of my battle-dress. The thought gradually came to me that I was not dead. I lay perfectly still and strained my ears. There was no sound, I raised my head from my arm and felt the pains in my chest and leg. My spectacles were close by and unbroken and that seemed more important. I put them on and looked at my watch. It was four o'clock. The massacre had taken place at noon.
Brian Fahey.

So if you believe Bert Evans is a liar, remember this is the guy with the mangled arm! You possibly can't doubt Brian Fahey can you?
http://www.jazzprofessional.com/Minstrel/MASSACRE.htm

And you seriously cannot doubt this cemetery, CAN YOU?

Image
WORMHOUDT COMMUNAL CEMETERY, FRANCE
why didn't the British Government persecute any Germans connected to the alleged Wormhoundt atrocity
Panzermahn, Postwar Europe was turned upside down, countries were bankrupt, millions of people were displaced...The British authorities could not, or would not believe that these two atrocities had actually taken place...The Germans had been put to the sword, but on the horizon was a fast approaching future enemy! So eyes and thoughts were elsewhere.

The Wormhoudt crime do not go away in the minds of those that suffered....So much so infact, the question was raised in parliament in the late eighties, and again in the early nineties...But alas to much time had past, memories fade, veterans die.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#8

Post by David Thompson » 12 May 2004, 03:21

Thanks for the correction, Englander, which I incorporated into the title of the thread.

User avatar
Georg_S
Forum Staff
Posts: 5565
Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 13:37
Location: Sweden

#9

Post by Georg_S » 12 May 2004, 08:59

Hello,

I have with great interesst read this thread about the Wormhout
incident. To my knowledge Britain tried to get Mohnke through
official channel transferred to England for trial for many years.
Why he wasn´t turned over is unknown to me.
But some reasons can be:
1. Itsn´t sure if it was Mohnke who was responsible for the Incident
2. Some of the witnesses, make some fatal errors, like saying that
the SS men in their Black SS uniforms did the terrible
things..
I can list some more errors of the witnesses as well, and maybe the
German Authorities didn´t think it was a reason enough to turn
over Mohnke in this case.

I have the book "Massacre on the Road to Dunkirk" of Leslie Aitken
and I have to admit after I read it I had many doubts of who was
responsible for the Wormhout massacre. According to the book
it was Mohnke and noone other who did it, but personally I don´t think so.

Then to the accusings of the SS men all being murderers etc.
I don´t want to make an excuse for the Waffen-SS soldiers who fought
in the WWII, they made many warcrimes, that matter had been discussed
many times here on the forum, but the Allied (all of them) made many them
self. I can list many (too many) warcrimes which the allied comitted to
against the Germans (and SS) during the war and especially after the D-day.
Most of them execusions without trial, in some cases torteure and cutting body part of the SS men (Photo evidence availible). All of this against
combat SS men, not SS men who served in camps...

So to my point of view, both sides comitted warcrimes, and that is something
that happens when people are fighting against eachother, and it will
never end, I think we have seen it many times after the WWII as in
Korea, Vietnam, Middle-East, Former Rep. of Yugoslavia, Rwanda,
Kuwait, Iraq......

Then I have to make clear that I make a difference between Warcrimes
and Crimes against Humanity. The KL/KZ was a crime against Humanity in
my point of view. And killing POW´s or torteure them is a War Crime.

Best regards,

Georg

matt1200uk
New member
Posts: 1
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 23:20
Location: London

wormhoudt

#10

Post by matt1200uk » 04 Aug 2007, 23:25

The ss officer who ordered the massacre was tracked down after the war and hung. He was executed by the allies for war crimes, and rightly so.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#11

Post by David Thompson » 05 Aug 2007, 00:46

matt1200uk -- If you're talking about Wilhelm Mohnke, discussed above, he died in 2001, at the age of 90:

Mohnke, Wilhelm (15.3.1911-8.2001) [SS-Brigadefűhrer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS] -- NSDAP: 649684; SS: 15541; service, "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" 1933-1943; service, 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjungend" 1943-1944; commander, 1st SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" Aug 1944-Feb 1945 [Knights Cross 1944] {captured by Soviet forces at Berlin May 1945; held in solitary confinement at Budkia and Ljubljanka prisons in Moscow until 1949; held after May 1950 as war criminal (NYT 7 May 1950:35:3); impending release pursuant to "Adenauer amnesty" announced by Nikita S. Krushchev 9 Sept 1955 (Gulag Archipelago vol. 3, pps. 441-2); held at Woikowo (Voikovo) POW camp until release from Soviet captivity Oct 1955; accused of the murder of British POWs on 28 May 1940 and of Canadian POWs in Jun 1944; never brought to trial by West Germany on POW murder charges, notwithstanding British demands into the 1980s; died Aug 2001 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 119-20; Waffen-SS Commanders II, pps. 115-7; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}

User avatar
Georg_S
Forum Staff
Posts: 5565
Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 13:37
Location: Sweden

#12

Post by Georg_S » 05 Aug 2007, 06:28

David Thompson wrote:matt1200uk -- If you're talking about Wilhelm Mohnke, discussed above, he died in 2001, at the age of 90:

Mohnke, Wilhelm (15.3.1911-8.2001) [SS-Brigadefűhrer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS] -- NSDAP: 649684; SS: 15541; service, "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" 1933-1943; service, 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjungend" 1943-1944; commander, 1st SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" Aug 1944-Feb 1945 [Knights Cross 1944] {captured by Soviet forces at Berlin May 2, 1945; held in solitary confinement at Budkia and Ljubljanka prisons in Moscow until 1949; held after May 1950 as war criminal (NYT 7 May 1950:35:3); impending release pursuant to "Adenauer amnesty" announced by Nikita S. Krushchev 9 Sept 1955 (Gulag Archipelago vol. 3, pps. 441-2); held at Woikowo (Voikovo) POW camp until release from Soviet captivity Oct 1955; accused of the murder of British POWs on 28 May 1940 and of Canadian POWs in Jun 1944; never brought to trial by West Germany on POW murder charges, notwithstanding British demands into the 1980s; died Aug 2001 (SS: Roll of Infamy p. 119-20; Waffen-SS Commanders II, pps. 115-7; Dienstaltersliste der Schutzstaffel der NSDAP [9 Nov 1944]).}
I correct some errrors in your text about Mohnke and I also ad some info.

Joined the NSDAP: Sept. 9, 1931
Joined the SS: Nov. 1931
4.SS-Standarte 1931 - ?.1.1932
22.SS-Standarte Jan.1932 - ?
In 1940 Monhke was Kp.Fhr over the 5.Kp. / II Btl . LSSAH
28.3.1940 - ? Temporarely Btl Kdr II.Btl. LSSAH
?.?-19?? - - 6.4.1941 Kp.Fhr 5./II. LSSAH
14.1.1942 - 15.3.1942 - Kdr. Pz.Abt. LSSAH (First Kdr)
16.3.1942 - ? SS-AuE.Btl. LSSAH
?.1943 - August. 1944 - Rgtl. Kdr SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.26 "Hitlerjugend" 12.SS-Pz.Div. "HJ"
20.8.1944 - ?.2.1945 Kdr. 1.SS-Pz.Div. LSSAH (after that SS-Brigfhr. T. Wisch being wounded)
?.?1945 to 2.5.1945 Kdr. Kampfgruppe Mohnke and resp. fore the defence of the reichskanzlei.

Wounded at 6.4.1941 (lost his foot)
Wounded 17.7.1944
Wounded ?.2.1945

EK II - 21.9.1939
EK I - 8.11.1939
DKiG - 26.12.1941
RK - 11.7.1944

Many accounts of Mohnke av. in the book "The Bunker" about what happened in the last weeks of A. Hitler. And how Mohnke reacted and what he did with the defence of the Reichskanzlei. See also R. Lehmann/R Tiemann "Leibstandarte SS A.H." H Meyers Kriegsgeschichte der 12.SS-Pz.Div. "HJ" E.G. Krätschmers "Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS" and http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/WilhelMohnke.html also search thise forum for more additional information.

Best reg.

Georg

Ship of Fools
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: 18 Jul 2006, 08:02
Location: Europe

#13

Post by Ship of Fools » 05 Aug 2007, 14:22

Does anyone know when and under what circumstances the Massacre became public knowledge? During the war, just after or much later?

This is Brian Fahey describing it some years later, after the SS had allegedly thrown grenades into a building where they were holding 100+ prisoners.
I struggled to my feet and a lad about nineteen with a Birmingham accent helped me. We shook hands and took our places. He was at number four, I was at number five.

The officer gave the command. "Eins"! A shot. After what seemed an eternity (in reality, about two seconds), "Zwei!" and another shot. It was sur­prisingly easy to show no panic. I could only stand on my good leg so movement was impossible. The situation was so hopeless that it was almost a relief to think that it would soon be over.

"Drei!" The third rifle fired and despatched its victim. I tried to concentrate my thoughts on my past life and on my family.

'Vier!" The fourth rifle fired and I saw from the corner of my eye the boy with the Birmingham accent fall. My mind was buzzing with half-remembered sights and sounds. My father practising the 'cello; the cricket nets on the middle playground at Colfe's; the smell of the fats and rags and bones in my uncle's Marine Store at Margate.

'Funf" It was just like a sharp blow from a fist in my chest that knocked me over. As I hit the ground everything left my mind except the sen­sation of raging thirst and the certainty that I was dead.

When I opened my eyes I saw the grass and the khaki of my battle-dress. The thought gradually came to me that I was not dead. I lay perfectly still and strained my ears. There was no sound, I raised my head from my arm and felt the pains in my chest and leg. My spectacles were close by and unbroken and that seemed more important. I put them on and looked at my watch. It was four o'clock. The massacre had taken place at noon.
According to wikipedia the German prosecutor investigated Mohnke but decided there was insufficient evidence to bring him to trial over this incident in the 1980s.

I am guessing there was never a forensic investigation on the human remains at the site?

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

#14

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 Aug 2007, 03:26

Does anyone know when and under what circumstances the Massacre became public knowledge?
I believe four British POW survivors of the massacre were recaptured by Wehrmacht troops and and at least one or two - including Pvt. Bert Evans of the 48th Division - were repatriated in October 1943 back to the UK for humanitarian reasons. Pvt. Evans recounted his experience of the massacre to the military authorities. I believe that this knowledge of the Wormhout killings prompted Allied authorities to begin investigating "Sepp" Dietrich, the flamboyant CO of the LAH division, as a possible war criminal.

In 1947 Pvt. Evans went back to Wornhout as part of an Allied War Crimes investigation team. The Allied judiciary first suspected Dietrich of ordering the killings, but he had a pertty airtight alibi - he spent most of that day along with SS officer Max Wünsche pinned down in a ditch after troops of the British Gloucestershire Regiment shot up his Kfz-15 staff car!

Mohnke of course, who most likely did order the massacre, was captured by the Soviets in May 1945. He wasn't released until 1955, and by that point the Cold War was in full swing and British interest in prosecuting German war criminals had waned.

Just a couple weeks ago The Birmingham Post ran a story about 86-year-old Bert Evans, who will be making what will probably be his last trip to Wormhout.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/bir ... _page.html

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

forensic investigation

#15

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 07 Aug 2007, 03:37

I am guessing there was never a forensic investigation on the human remains at the site?
Good question. I believe the bodies were probably buried soon after the killing, and then reinterred at the British military cemetery at Esquelbecq. You might be able to find more information at http://www.coalhousefort-gallery.com/Wo ... sacre-Site

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”