FDR Knew About The Holocaust Early & The Plot To Spare N

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Psycho Mike
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FDR Knew About The Holocaust Early & The Plot To Spare N

#1

Post by Psycho Mike » 15 May 2004, 00:30

I have always openly speculated why FDR never ordered the bombing of the tracks that led to the death camps. FDR supporters argue that he didn't know.

Yes he did.

And these files end the claims of the holocaust deniers.

But we too have blood on our hands.
Files show Nazi criminals' U.S. intel role
By Thom J. Rose
UPI Correspondent
Published 5/13/2004 6:51 PM


WASHINGTON, May 13 (UPI) -- Eight million pages of U.S. documents released Thursday reveal new evidence of U.S. intelligence agencies' close involvement with Nazi war criminals and indicate U.S. agents knew about Germany's plans for genocide sooner than thought.

The revelations have aroused debate about current U.S. intelligence practices and cast shadows over the record of U.S. officials who knew that Nazi Germany was rounding up and killing Jews by the millions but did little to stop it.

"As the world scrutinizes us today, we can hold up this project (to declassify the documents) and say we were willing to look at the worst and hold up the truth," said Rep. Carolyn Maloney, D-N.Y., at a National Archives news conference.

"We are confronted today with some of the very same questions and very same issues in intelligence gathering," Maloney added.

Several speakers, including historians who have studied the documents, connected intelligence considerations following World War II to current intelligence-gathering efforts in Iraq and elsewhere.

Timothy Naftali, a historian who and co-wrote "U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis" based on the contents of the documents made public Thursday, said using questionable sources to gain intelligence after World War II led to bad information and immoral behavior.

"Once you get involved with these (war criminals), even the minor ones, you're in trouble," Naftali said.

He went on to warn against employing former Iraqi intelligence agents to gather information for the United States.

"There is no reason to make the mistakes in Iraq that we made in Germany," Naftali said. "We did this once. Never, never again."

Naftali said the newly released records indicate five of Nazi Lt. Col. Adolf Eichmann's associates, all Holocaust perpetrators, worked for the CIA after World War II.

In all, the CIA attempted to recruit 23 war criminals and former Nazis.

West German intelligence services, which were funded by the United States, employed almost 100 war criminals, Naftali said.

Employing ex-Nazis was not only morally problematic, but also proved highly impractical, Naftali said. Afraid their sordid histories might become public, ex-Nazi informants proved highly susceptible to blackmail -- many of them were eventually revealed to be double agents misleading Western intelligence for the Soviet Union.

The West German Gehlen Organization, which was headed by former Nazi officer Reinhard Gehlen, came in for significant scrutiny by the historians who had seen the documents.

Gerhard Weinberg, the chairman of the historical advisory panel that examined the documents, said the Gehlen Organization, which the United States supported, was so corrupt that "its major part in Eastern Europe was run from Moscow."

Naftali said the organization employed almost 100 war criminals, most of whom were very poor intelligence sources.

Norman Goda, another co-author of "U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis," said the records further show that U.S. intelligence agencies employed and protected a large number of Eastern European Nazi collaborators after the war, allowing them to live undisturbed in the United States in exchange for information about possible communist sympathies within Eastern European immigration communities.

Besides revealing U.S. intelligence connections to Nazi war criminals, the documents show U.S. intelligence knew about Nazi genocide earlier than thought.

The documents show that U.S. agents conducted in-depth interviews in 1941 and 1942 with Jews who had escaped Germany or German-occupied territories. Some of those interviews included details of Hitler's campaign to kill all European Jews.

Despite ample information from credible sources, the United States did not make an official statement that Germany was pursuing a policy of mass extermination until six months after the intelligence had been gathered.

Historian Richard Breitman said the documents show that U.S. intelligence was gathering a great deal of useful information, but "The significance of this information was not properly recognized or used either during the war or after."

Thursday's declassifications are the latest effort of the Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group, which has spent five years pursuing the release of documents relevant to World War II and its aftermath.

The effort was authorized by the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act of 1998 and has been extended to allow one more year to seek additional documents about both the Pacific and European theaters of World War II.

Paul Shapiro, the director of the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and an adviser to the project, told United Press International the U.S. disclosure effort is one of the world's most comprehensive.

"Only the French under (President Jacques) Chirac have undertaken the same kind of massive declassification of documentation," Shapiro said.

He said the importance of Holocaust research and the openness required for it should not be underestimated.

"The relationship between that history and contemporary society is very direct," He said. "I think the implications of complicity and the implications of turning your head away in the face of genocide or in the face of crimes against humanity don't go away."

--

(Please send comments to [email protected].)



Copyright © 2001-2004 United Press International

Caldric
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#2

Post by Caldric » 15 May 2004, 00:38

Wow they went through 8 million pages in less then a day? 8O


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#3

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 15 May 2004, 16:02

I have always openly speculated why FDR never ordered the bombing of the tracks that led to the death camps. FDR supporters argue that he didn't know.

Yes he did.


Bombing train tracks wiould have done no good, and in reality would have substracted from our effort to bomb targets that had an effect on WINNING the war. This has been discussed here before.

But we too have blood on our hands.
Yea Nazi blood,

You should realize about 300, 000 Americans died in a war called World War II, and without our intervention , the Nazi's would still be in business today.

[The Israel-Palestine conflict is off topic /webmaster]


FDR supporters argue that he didn't know.

Yes he did.

And these files end the claims of the holocaust deniers.
:? :? :?

So FDR supporters were/are closet nazi's????????

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Marcus
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#4

Post by Marcus » 15 May 2004, 16:10

ChristopherPerrien wrote:You should realize about 300, 000 Americans died in a war called World War II, and without our intervention , the Nazi's would still be in business today.
The US hardly won the war on their own, if any country among the allies should be singled out as "winning the war", USSR would be it, but that is a topic for another thread.

/Marcus

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Psycho Mike
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#5

Post by Psycho Mike » 15 May 2004, 16:21

I think the camps were located far from the cities for a reason. I don't believe the Germans rallied around Hitler because he would kill the Jews.
In fact, propaganda inside Germany went to great pains to paint elaborate false pictures of life in the camps. Magazines showed them swimming, playing tennis, etc. Postcards were sent out that all said the same thing about how great life in the camps were. This was propaganda meant for German consumption. The German people were not to know.

Bnai Brth (not sure of the spelling) was allowed to keep an office in Berlin until 1943 (they are listed in the phone book) and several thousand Jews remained in the city just to counter rumors and suspicion. The nazi's knew what they were doing was wrong.

Bombing the tracks heading for the camps would have stopped the flow. It's that simple. I doubt the Jews would have been taken to the public sqaures of major cities and executed.

When you add to this that we wouldn't allow boats filled with Jews to land here and sent many back to Germany (there is a movie about this called SHIP OF FOOLS I believe with Lee Marvin) calling FDR an anti-semite seems appropriate to me. That has nothing to do with him fighting nazi's by the way. That Truman was eager to sign up war criminals to help us was outragous, and if there is a lesson to be learned from this as we deal with groups like Iraq's Baath party we had better learn it quick.

While you can argue that we just didn't have the bombs to drop on the tracks, I would say we had them to drop on Dresden and we had the gall to go after Leni Refenstahl, a filmmaker, for collaboration. While letting murderers go free.

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#6

Post by Psycho Mike » 15 May 2004, 17:45

CLEARLY THERE IS MORE TO COME ON THESE NEWLY RELEASED WW 2 SECRET FILES:
COMPANIES THAT PROFITED FROM HITLER DURING WAR, DON'T ASK DON'T TELL EX- NAZI POLICY

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/s ... 67,00.html
WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. government threw moral qualms to the wind in employing ex-Nazis after World War II, contend historians who examined a mountain of declassified papers released Thursday.
The government ``dishonored the memory of the victims of the Holocaust and American soldiers who died,'' said Elizabeth Holtzman, member of a government-appointed group studying millions of pages of files from that era.

Reinhard Gehlen, for example, was recruited by the CIA after World War II because he was chief of army intelligence for the Nazis on the Eastern Front, where most of the mass killings of Jews occurred. Gehlen was undoubtedly involved in the brutal interrogation of Russian prisoners of war, Holtzman said.

Gehlen was brought to America and then sent back to Germany to set up a major spy network for the United States. First, he worked for the CIA; later his operation became the West German intelligence service and he was thought to have employed Nazi war criminals.

He is just one example of how the FBI and other U.S. agencies ignored the murky pasts of alleged Nazi collaborators, many living in the United States, because the government saw them as useful during the Cold War, according to the records released at the National Archives.

Four historians who collaborated on a book, ``U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis,'' based on the new records, said a good deal of information about the Holocaust was available early to officials of the Office of Strategic Services, the CIA's predecessor.

The book, also released Thursday, cites papers describing the systematic killing of European Jews months before the Allies - in a December 1942 statement saying Nazi Germany was carrying out a policy of mass extermination - acknowledged knowing about it.

In the summer of 1942, Joseph Goldschmied, a Czech banker who fled to the United States, gave U.S. officials a 26-page account of the German occupation, describing a shift in strategy from forced emigration of Czech Jews to their annihilation.

The historians also found detailed accounts from an unknown source, writing from Lisbon in a series of letters starting in June 1942, asserting Germany was no longer merely persecuting European Jews - ``It is systematically exterminating them.''

The letters appear to have been sent to Allen Dulles, then a U.S. intelligence officer stationed in New York, before his transfer to Switzerland in November 1942. Dulles later became CIA director.

Such material adds to evidence that some U.S. officials had heard reports about elements of the Holocaust. But the historians say their findings do not contradict long-existing accounts by U.S. officials that they did not know the scope of the killings at the time.

Historians discussed how alleged Nazi war criminals used their knowledge of the Soviets and Eastern Europe to play up their value to Allied officials after the war.

Historian Norman J.W. Goda said the FBI ``did not dig deep for the truth'' on such people because it wanted them on America's side in the Cold War with the communist Soviet Union.

The government saw Nazi sympathizers as useful in countering any pro-Communist leanings in immigrant communities in the United States, and the CIA and other agencies sometimes thwarted immigration authorities from beginning deportation proceedings, the records show.

The records also describe the case of Otto von Bolshwing, a former SS officer hired by the CIA in 1949. Bolshwing had worked with Adolf Eichmann before the war in planning the expropriation of Jewish property in Austria and later served as SS consultant to the forces that staged the bloody pogrom in Bucharest, Romania, in 1941.

The documents also show Theodor Saevecke served as a CIA agent in Berlin in the late 1940s, despite evidence he had executed members of the Italian resistance during the war.

``In U.S. intelligence, there was no prohibition of hiring anyone in the Gestapo and SS,'' said historian Timothy Naftali. ``This was a 'don't ask, don't tell' culture.''

The Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group released the book by its independent historians.

The group has overseen the declassification and release of roughly 8 million pages of U.S. government records related to war criminals and crimes committed by the Nazi and Japanese Imperial Government during World War II.
Press Briefing:
Government Group Opens Long-Secret Documents under Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act

Historians’ Book Reveals Insights on the Holocaust and Significant New Information about the Relationship of War Criminals with Allied Intelligence Services

What: The Nazi War Crimes and Japanese Imperial Government Records Interagency Working Group (IWG) will hold a briefing on the release of U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis, a 15-chapter book that discusses hundreds of the millions of documents located, declassified, and released by the CIA, FBI, Army, State Department, and other U.S. agencies under the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act. The IWG also will announce the availability of additional records declassified under the Act and open to the public at the National Archives, College Park, Maryland.

U.S. Intelligence and the Nazis demonstrates how the newly declassified documents alter and enhance our understanding of World War II and the beginning of the Cold War. The book reveals new information about Holocaust perpetrators and collaborators and about the role of intelligence services, especially the use of war criminals by U.S. intelligence organizations after the war.

The newly released records include materials from the FBI, CIA, and U.S. Army:


Approximately 240,000 pages from the FBI on espionage, foreign counterintelligence, domestic security, and treason. Highlights include files on the FBI’s interaction with Nazis who immigrated to the U.S. and files on U.S. corporations that profited from dealings with the Nazis.


419 additional CIA Name and Subject files, bringing the total number opened by the IWG to nearly 800.


More than 3,000 pages documenting the U.S. Army’s involvement with German spymaster Reinhard Gehlen, whose post-war intelligence organization received U.S. funding to spy on the Soviet Union.
Who: Press will be briefed by IWG historians Richard Breitman, Norman J.W. Goda, Timothy Naftali, and Robert Wolfe, with additional comments by Representative Carolyn Maloney of New York, Senator Mike DeWine of Ohio, U.S. Archivist John Carlin, IWG chair Steven Garfinkel, and IWG Public Members Elizabeth Holtzman, Thomas Baer, and Richard Ben-Veniste. Following the briefing, the historians will be available for comment.

When: Thursday, May 13, 10:00 A.M.
Pre-set time for television/radio is 9:30 A.M.

Where:

Jefferson Room
National Archives Building
700 and Pennsylvania Avenue, NW


Since 1999, the IWG has overseen the identification, declassification, and release of roughly 8 million pages of U.S. Government records related to war criminals and crimes committed by the Nazi and Japanese Imperial Governments during World War II as required by the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act of 1998 and the Japanese Imperial Government Disclosure Act of 2000. The IWG website is: http://www.archives.gov/iwg/.

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#7

Post by Konig_pilsner » 15 May 2004, 21:09

i have a hard time understanding why people are so intrigued by these "new" revelations. everyone has known about the use of ex-nazis by the americans for years. from the space program to russian intellegence, these "criminals" helped the west win the cold war. had the americans chosen not to use them, the headlines in todays papers might read," DECLASSIFIED FILES SHOW STUPID AMERICANS LOST COLD WAR TO MAINTAIN THEIR MORALS VALUES" (written in russian).

as to bombing railroads, for christ sakes they did. all my grandfather did for the entire war was repair tracks. everyone knows the difficulty in shutting down a railroad for long, they can be repaired in a few hours. just look at the german attempts to cut the murmansk line and u will see how futile trying can be. to say that the west in anyway could have stopped rail traffic to the camps is naive, and makes one wonder what strange agenda someone would have to make such claims. cound it be after milking the Axis nations for reperations for years, now its time to go after the Allies.

FDR was a jew. he was the only one in america that wanted to go to war. now he is somehow an anti-semite? unbelievable.

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#8

Post by Psycho Mike » 15 May 2004, 21:30

Hi Pilsner- FDR was not Jewish. I have no idea where that is from!

We have never had a Jewish President.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/fdrfaq.html#
FDR was an Episcopalian. He was baptized in the chapel of St. James Episcopal Church in Hyde Park, New York. Like his father and half brother, he served as junior vestryman, vestryman and senior warden. He rarely attended services in Washington, DC. "I can do almost anything in the "Goldfish Bowl" of the President's life," he said, "but I'll be hanged if I can say my prayers in it...."
Episcopalians are like Catholics, without the guilt..... :lol:

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#9

Post by Konig_pilsner » 16 May 2004, 03:37

psycho mike -

i am sorry, you are right. Being canadian, i am no expert on the american presidency, but i have read hitler refering to FDR as "that jew rosavelt", and the name sounds a little jewish. did not know it was just a slur. i concede that point to you. could u now either concede the fact that bombing the camp rail network would be inaffectual, or provide some justification for your statements.

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Psycho Mike
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#10

Post by Psycho Mike » 16 May 2004, 15:24

The revelation so far is the time line. That it was known before 1943 what Hitler was going to do to the Jews and it was factored into none of our psyops, battle plans or anything else. We didn't even warn people in governments overtaken by Hitler not to turn people over.

Dropping flyers on Germany saying what was going on in the camps would have been laughed at in the beginning but we do know that camp guards suffering severe depression did start to tell stories as the war continued. At that exact moment Germans would know they were lied to. As you know, most fought to the bitter end defending Hitler. If all the flyers had done was reveal we were telling the truth and their government was lying I think it would have had a profound effect. It certainly did on Japan as you'll read later. But we will never know because no one on our side at the time- thought it was important.

Bombing the tracks would if matched with propaganda had sent a clear message to Hitler's henchmen and the SS- we know what you are doing and there will be a price paid. Ignoring them gave them the impression that we didn't know.

The Japanese people were fanatical in their support of the military, and the vast majority did not even know we had dropped atomic bombs on them and if they did, had no idea what these bombs were. How could they conceive of such a thing? So- why didn't they fight to the death anyway?

Our psyops, who by the way never got any credit for it had dropped flyers all over Japan stating that the Emperor was negotiating peace with us. Every step of the negotiations was covered. Meanwhile military officers kept urging people to fight on, as did the radio. As the people read what was going on they stopped. POW's reported that suddenly the beatings stopped and guards began to share their food with them. When people heard the truth their will to fight to the last person was broken. Why fight when your emperor is negotiatiog surrender? This more than the nukes ended the war. You can read about it here: http://civildefense.blogdrive.com/ if you go to the first entry for May 14th.

I would also say that revelations to come about companies that profited during the war with secret deals with Hitler will not shock anyone reading my rant. If documents reveal that FDR manipulated the Japanese into attacking us we will all go, "heard that before". But we forget the 98% of the public that still carries the propaganda from that war with them. Those that have never read any book about the war. These are very real revelations.

In Chicago any company that has traceable ties to slavery is excluded from doing business with the city. It will be interesting to see the response of Democrats who passed that rule when the names of companies that dealt with Hitler during the war are revealed. HINT: our police may have to ride around in Japanese cars! :lol:

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#11

Post by Beppo Schmidt » 16 May 2004, 15:51

I thought it was common knowledge for decades that the US was slow in helping Jewish immigrants and refused to bomb concentration camps and railways. I genuinely get no pleasure in saying this, as I have always wanted to believe the best of President Roosevelt, but in my opinion, for this reason if no other, FDR is not worthy of having his likeness on American currency anymore than Andrew Jackson. FDR may not have directly caused the deaths of thousands as Jackson did, but he must bear some guilt for his deliberate refusal to do anything to help. In many other ways he was a strong and good leader, but this is a disgrace and it cannot be ignored that with his actions or lack thereof, FDR contributed to the Holocaust.

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#12

Post by David Thompson » 17 May 2004, 02:15

I have always openly speculated why FDR never ordered the bombing of the tracks that led to the death camps.
Here are some factors to consider:

(1) Below is an illustration scanned from the US Holocaust Memorial Museum's Historical Atlas of the Holocaust, Macmillan Publishing USA, New York: 1996, pp. 78-79. The plate is captioned "European Rail System 1939," and only shows the major railroad lines. Superimposed on the map are the functioning "extermination camps" as of 1942. Note that there are seven major east-west rail routes (and more minor rail routes not shown here) crossing Europe and there is no single rail line which could be bombed to put the death camps out of business.

(2) Until the beginning of 1944, the USAAF could not provide fighter escorts for bombers attacking Berlin or other strategic industrial targets in the Ruhr valley in western Germany. As a result of heavy losses, the USAAF all but discontinued unescorted raids.

The extermination camps were located much further away, several hundred miles east of Berlin.

On 11 Jan 1944, the first P-51 fighter escorts equipped with drop tanks began to accompany US bombers into raids on the citieas of the Reich. Only by the end of May 1944 were the USAAF fighters able to achieve air superiority over Germany, and fighting in the air continued until April 1945.

(3) When the USAAF fighters achieved air superiority over Germany, they began to attack all German rolling stock -- particularly railroad locomotives -- anywhere they could be found. This began to paralyze rail transportation in the Reich, and did it far more rapidly and effectively than anything which could be achieved by bombing the rail lines.

(4) The daylight precision bombing of 1941-1945 was very inaccurate, as the US Strategic Bombing Survey reports for Europe later showed. The chart shown below was taken from the final summary report, and gives a good idea just how imprecise daylight precision bombing was (84% of the bombs didn't hit the target area, much less the target). Also, see the findings reproduced in the thread "Carpet-bombing towns and cities at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44286

Certainly, attacks on Nazi rocket construction facilities and air raids on forced labor camps producing advanced German aircraft designs killed tragic numbers of slave laborers. Assuming that the bombers could reach the targets with a fighter escort, it is an open question whether bombing raids directed against death camp operations would have saved more lives that they claimed.
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#13

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 17 May 2004, 17:09

It will be interesting to see the response of Democrats who passed that rule when the names of companies that dealt with Hitler during the war are revealed. HINT: our police may have to ride around in Japanese cars!
It will be interesting to see after this if any of these Democrats , pc police , and clueless people ever find out that JAPAN WAS ALLIES WITH THE NAZI's!!!!

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#14

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 17 May 2004, 18:29

FDR may not have directly caused the deaths of thousands as Jackson did, but he must bear some guilt for his deliberate refusal to do anything to help. In many other ways he was a strong and good leader, but this is a disgrace and it cannot be ignored that with his actions or lack thereof, FDR contributed to the Holocaust.
Jee Whiz , let us just beat a dead horse. What about most of Europe who refused to let Jews emigrate from Nazi Germany when Nazi oppression started in the thirties? It seems like at the time if you were a poor Jew at the time in Germany. no-one in the world wanted you or cared,


I think the camps were located far from the cities for a reason. I don't believe the Germans rallied around Hitler because he would kill the Jews.
In fact, propaganda inside Germany went to great pains to paint elaborate false pictures of life in the camps. Magazines showed them swimming, playing tennis, etc. Postcards were sent out that all said the same thing about how great life in the camps were. This was propaganda meant for German consumption. The German people were not to know.
As to camps in Germany these "false pictures" were done because the first concentration camps were built for political opponents of the Nazi party in Germany. The death camps in Poland were a little different since they were built for a diffent purpose.

And all this makes me convinced of the inherent RACISM present in much of the information and various people's biased views that have been presented in this topic. All of this info is focused so much on what Roosevelt did or did not do to SAVE Jews from extermination, by the sheer lack of any mention of any other group. IT seems to say "we only care that no-one tried to save the Jews and the millions of Poles, Catholics, Russians, Gypsies and other Eastern europeans that the Nazis were busy killing, are not even worthy of mention or suing anybody over.
Can you say "Jews first, and to hell with everyone else who was killed" because that is what this topic seems to be about.

And I also like the total lack of mention of how nice the Japanese were to every non-Japanese in their "Co-prosperity Sphere". I guess since Japanese war-criminals killed no Jews their crimes don't rate being mentioned, or being considered to evil to employ.

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FDR knew

#15

Post by col. klink » 17 May 2004, 21:12

To drag out Psycho Mike's observation about the law in Chicago; I would guess that means no one in from the Bush family can do business with the city of Chicago because of the use of slave labor in the factories they were involved in in the Reich lands during WWII. I hope this policy would apply to a ban on the Bush family doing government business as well.
The way to end the slaughter was to end the war and remove the Nazi governemnt from power as quickly as possible; that is what was done.

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