Ukrainian genocide

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
KalaVelka
Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 26 Dec 2002 16:12
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Ukrainian genocide

Post by KalaVelka » 21 May 2004 21:29

I read from somewhere, that in the early 30's Stalin ordered that all the grain from the Ukraine should be collected away and sold elsewhere. The result was terrible: 7 million ukrainian died from starvation.

I started debate with my friend about this case and now I would like to have some hard facts that is this true? I am not even sure did this occure but please, if you know anything about this case or similar case like this please tell me.

Thanks in advance
Kasper

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kunikov » 21 May 2004 21:59

KalaVelka wrote:I read from somewhere, that in the early 30's Stalin ordered that all the grain from the Ukraine should be collected away and sold elsewhere. The result was terrible: 7 million ukrainian died from starvation.

I started debate with my friend about this case and now I would like to have some hard facts that is this true? I am not even sure did this occure but please, if you know anything about this case or similar case like this please tell me.

Thanks in advance
Kasper


There is a lot of debate as to what exactly happened. There was a famine and millions suffered, how many millions is not exactly known. Right now there is a lot of information coming out from the archives about what was going on, and there is a book on amazon with a lot of facts out called "The Years of Hunger", but it costs 90 dollars on amazon and 72 on barnes and nobles. Exact facts are hard to come by, and there is no middle ground about the exact effect Stalin's policies and the bad harvest had on the area.

User avatar
KalaVelka
Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 26 Dec 2002 16:12
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by KalaVelka » 22 May 2004 07:46

So are there any websites about the subject?

Kasper

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Post by Kunikov » 22 May 2004 14:19

KalaVelka wrote:So are there any websites about the subject?

Kasper


None that I know of.


User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Post by Kunikov » 22 May 2004 14:42



First two are nationalist Ukrainian sites as well as biased, no sources for their assertions. Third, uses Conquest, proven to be someone who can't be much trusted when it comes to Soviet History, fourth again has no sources, fifth Ukrainian biased, and the last is the same as the second.


User avatar
sylvieK4
Member
Posts: 3089
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 17:29

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 May 2004 14:50

It is all discussion/ part of the debate.

User avatar
sylvieK4
Member
Posts: 3089
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 17:29

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 May 2004 15:46

If you look on line, you will notice that there are numerous museums and university courses that instruct the Ukranian famine as a factual genocide. I suggest that you email some of the professors and museum personnel and ask them on what basis they justify making the genocide claim. (What specific sources - documents, statistics, witness testimony, etc. - do they or their institutions rely upon to support their assertions in the classroom.)

User avatar
sylvieK4
Member
Posts: 3089
Joined: 13 Mar 2002 17:29

Post by sylvieK4 » 22 May 2004 16:09

The topic is the subject of several books, as well.

Here are a few examples:

The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine Robert Conquest. Oxford University Press, 1986.

http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/bios/conquest.html

http://www.skalman.nu/bookstore-soviet-gulag.htm
Image

Execution by Hunger: The Hidden Holocaust Miron Dolot and Adam Bruno Ulam.W.W. Norton & Compan. 1987

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 10-7530432
Image

User avatar
KalaVelka
Member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 26 Dec 2002 16:12
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

Post by KalaVelka » 22 May 2004 20:32

Thanks for all of you. Again this forum has helped me alot.

Kasper

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Post by Kunikov » 22 May 2004 23:24

Harvest of Sorrow is a horrible book, you'd be more inclined to get "The Years of Hunger"
The Years of Hunger : Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933
by R. W. Davies (Author), Stephen G. Wheatcroft (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... oding=UTF8

User avatar
Vadim
Member
Posts: 430
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 08:27
Location: NYC

Post by Vadim » 23 May 2004 00:28

Kunikov, this is one of those rare moments where I have to agree with Michael Mills: Wheatcroft is a notorious Stalin apologist. Him and Conquest are on the polar ends of the spectrum, so if you claim that Conquest is not to be trusted then neither is Wheatcroft, neither will give you a clear unbiased account. Both are worthwhile historians though, so my advice to anyone learning about this would be to read both authors and try to "distill" their own truth about what happened.

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Post by Kunikov » 23 May 2004 00:33

Vadim wrote:Kunikov, this is one of those rare moments where I have to agree with Michael Mills: Wheatcroft is a notorious Stalin apologist. Him and Conquest are on the polar ends of the spectrum, so if you claim that Conquest is not to be trusted then neither is Wheatcroft, neither will give you a clear unbiased account. Both are worthwhile historians though, so my advice to anyone learning about this would be to read both authors and try to "distill" their own truth about what happened.


Wheatcroft at least presents what is archival evidence while Conquest outright lies with his numbers and so called "facts" based on sole accounts of Ukrainian nationalists.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23251
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 12 Jan 2007 04:48


Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”