Ukrainian genocide

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Chinaski1917
Member
Posts: 451
Joined: 07 Jul 2007 13:51

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Chinaski1917 » 01 May 2010 13:45

"PACE"

what's that?

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33944
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Marcus » 01 May 2010 13:54

Chinaski1917 wrote:"PACE"

what's that?
I assume it is the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.

/Marcus

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 13:55

Jonah Goldberg

Now, part of what fascinates me is why anyone would think murdering people because of their economic status is somehow any less evil than murdering people because of their ethnicity.

I know what many of the whys are, and I think they reveal something profound about how different people see the world. In America and the West generally, vast numbers of leftist intellectuals forgave Stalin, Mao and others for murdering people who stood in the way of Progress — and historians continue to do so today.

Indeed, "modernization" was one of the great excuses and rationalizations for murder, theft and, yes, genocide in the 20th century and, I fear, people will be going back to this intellectual well for a good long time.

One last point:

If you are a Marxist you generally consider race, ethnicity and nationality to be mere epiphenomena, absurd and archaic categories of the Old Order, right? And, you believe that class is an enduring category of humanity, more "real" than mere ethnicity, right? So by your own definitions, isn't slaughtering a whole class of people a form of genocide or attempted genocide?

Chinaski1917
Member
Posts: 451
Joined: 07 Jul 2007 13:51

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Chinaski1917 » 01 May 2010 14:03

"Now, part of what fascinates me is why anyone would think murdering people because of their economic status is somehow any less evil than murdering people because of their ethnicity."

Well by your definition we could name genocides the American revolution , the French Revolution the Greek Revolution whatever one wants just as long there is killing or deaths involved.

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 14:08

Chinaski1917 wrote:...Well by your definition...
Where is my definition?

European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"

I agree.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1895
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 May 2010 14:11

Jonah Goldberg, the unhinged history-distorting wingnut that he is, is slightly correct in this specific case. I'm not sure anyone explicitly said that such a murder is less evil, but it certainly is not enshrined in any "-cide" term. Not that it has to do with the left/right political divisions. Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.

PS: Of course, wingnut Goldberg doesn't cite any evidence that "vast numbers of leftist intellectuals forgave Stalin, Mao and others for murdering people who stood in the way of Progress — and historians continue to do so today". And of course genocide is not generally defined as killing any "whole class" of people, which is the whole point. It is also not clear why Goldberg is having a discussion with some abstract "Marxists". Unless, of course, anyone to the left of Attila the Hun is a Marxist for the Doughy Pantload.

Chinaski1917
Member
Posts: 451
Joined: 07 Jul 2007 13:51

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Chinaski1917 » 01 May 2010 14:14

"European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"

I agree."

Well I disagree and what do you know ? All serious HISTORIANS disagree too.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1895
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 May 2010 14:17

European Parliament definition:

"Holodomor (the artificial famine of 1932-1933 in country-regionplaceUkraine) as an appalling crime against the Ukrainian people, and against humanity"
Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force. The problem with this definition is it's so wobbly that quite a lot of interpretations fit it, including Robert Conquest's non-genocidal definition. Artificial? Well, yeah, to the extent that it was exacerbated by the state policy, it was artificial. A crime? Criminal negligence is a crime. I.e. nothing in the definition says "genocide".

The other problem with it is that it is one-sided. It was a crime against Ukrainian people, but not against Russian people, Kazakh people, Belorussian people? Are they famine-deniers when it comes to non-Ukrainian "parts" of the famine? If not, why they don't mention it?

Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.
Last edited by Sergey Romanov on 01 May 2010 14:19, edited 1 time in total.

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 14:18

Chinaski1917 wrote:and what do you know ?
All serious HISTORIANS disagree too.
good-bye

Chinaski1917
Member
Posts: 451
Joined: 07 Jul 2007 13:51

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Chinaski1917 » 01 May 2010 14:21

Sergey said it all, I have nothing to add . I agree 100%

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 14:23

Sergey Romanov wrote:Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.
Sergey Romanov wrote:Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force...Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.
I agree with first statement.

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1895
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 May 2010 14:28

Kajtmaz wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.
Sergey Romanov wrote:Not that any parliament's definition of historical events has any force...Parliaments should better leave definitions to historians.
I agree with first statement.
Because you took these quotes out of their immediate context, I need to clarify: the first quote applies to murder of people because of their economic status, not to any specific historical event.

Anyway, a question: do you agree with the "Harvest of Sorrow" author Robert Conquest that Stalin did not purposely inflict the 1933 famine?

User avatar
Sergey Romanov
Member
Posts: 1895
Joined: 28 Dec 2003 01:52
Location: World

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Sergey Romanov » 01 May 2010 14:42

As a matter of general interest, here is the full PACE statement:

http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?link= ... ES1723.htm

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 14:49

Sergey Romanov wrote:...the "Harvest of Sorrow" author Robert Conquest that Stalin did not purposely inflict the 1933 famine?
Proof, please.



that isnt persuasive argument:
Sergey Romanov wrote:(Source: R.W.Davies, S.G.Wheatcroft, "Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932 - 33: A Reply to Ellman", Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4, June 2006, 625 - 633.)

I agree with Andrea Graziosi.

Kajtmaz
Member
Posts: 522
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 17:38

Re: Ukrainian genocide

Post by Kajtmaz » 01 May 2010 14:52

As a matter of general interest, here is the European Parliament resolution:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/get ... XML+V0//EN

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”