US war crime?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Lipton
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Post by Lipton » 27 May 2004 13:03

Rob - WSSOB wrote:Hannes/Lipton: Why is this photo supposedly of a "war crime"? All it shows is some GI walking by some corpses. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about this image but have provided no information on who took it, and where and when it was published.

I've just done a Google search and could only one entry (in the billions and billions of web pages on the internet) regarding the 11th Armored Division supposedly shooting 60 SS prisoners in Chenogne from verteidiger0.tripod.com/defendersofthereich/id11.html

That site doesn't exist anymore, but a google cache of the page is
In the village of Chenogne, the US 11th Armored Division had captured over sixty German soldiers. They were marched behind a small hill, out of sight of the Axis troops still holding the woods beyond the village, the prisoners were then machine-gunned. On the first day of 1945, the Americans were showing no mercy for their unfortunate prisoners as they crumpled to the ground, shot dead in cold blood. Killing had become impersonal, killing as many Germans as they could was now foremost in their minds. Small wonder though considering General Eisenhowers comment that Our primary purpose is the distruction of as many Germans as possible.
This "Defenders of the Reich" goes on and on and on about war crime after war crime committed by the Allies and Allied propaganda and how the Nazis were really victims of Churchill and Eisenhower yadda yadda yadda... :roll:

Juha just pointed out that these troops are supposed to be French, but thankfully provided a quote and a book source.

This photo also looks weird, as if it's been doctored.

This doesn't seem to be much "proof" of a war crime...
Hi Rob, I was just guessing, can't say I'm sure. There's also another possibility: the pic shows G.I. passing bodies of Belgian civilians that were murdered by Kampfgruppe Peiper.

fknorr
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Post by fknorr » 27 May 2004 14:52

rob, some of your links are laughable.

Here is one for you:

http://www.45thdivision.org

Look there and see if you'll find any reference to the crimes that division committed @ Dachau and Italy. I'll save you some time...that info is not there. Is it not there because it never happened (NARA records on the Dachau thing prove that "something" happened) or is it not there because the people who produce these websites only put forth (generally) sanitized versions of the history and/or the "history" they want you to know about?

Why would anyone want to shed a bad light on grandpas war record, right? :roll:

Maybe you could do a little "google cache" search on some of the tobacco companies websites PRIOR to all the lawsuits of late. I am sure they would show TONS of information on how cigarette smoking caused cancer...probably not right? Same thing maybe, huh?

The image shown at the start of this thread is crummy at best...it shows nothing. You on the other hand KNOW that it cannot be caused by the US 11th Armored Division...psychic maybe?

American troops? French troops? Dead Germans? Dead Belgian civilians at the hands of evil Kampgruppe Pieper....now that should pass muster here since everyone knows that that was a blood thirsty lot, right?

Your quoting what D.T. says means nothing to me and in this case lifts the burden of proof from your shoulders, the only person in this thread claiming to KNOW what this poor image shows (or doesn't) and if you actually read my posts, I assert that this image shows nothing (i.e. not making any bold, definitive claims).

As for other units and tarnished histories, here is a short list of reading material for you...there is a lot more but right off the top of my head:
Roscoe Blunt - Foot soldier (84th infantry division)
Mark Bando - Breakout (2nd Armored)
Mark Bando - (several books on the 101st)
Reynolds - Steel Inferno (a whole Chapter on British/Canadian War Crimes)
Hermann Knell - To Destroy a City (well balanced account of the "Criminal" bombing campaign in WWII by all sides)

There are a ton more if you really wanted to read the truth (both sides), at least the first 3 (and I believe Reynolds's text as well) is all first hand accounts from the veterans themselves, not so-called "revisionist" writers and/or not on the (limited) approved reading list here.
Last edited by fknorr on 27 May 2004 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2004 16:18

fknorr -- Drop the offensively personal tone.

notimetowaste
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Post by notimetowaste » 27 May 2004 16:54

Rob:

Aha, so the whole incident is a product of someone's imagination because it is nowhere mentioned in some Anglo-American book about the Waffen-SS and in a couple of internet websites (some of your links are totally useless btw, why post the link to a page about the order of battle of the 11th AD? how does that help?) ??

Btw, I would like to see your multiple sources for every instance you accused the Waffen-SS on your site of perpetrating war crimes. You can skip Oradour, Malmedy, etc. since we have enough of those already.

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Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2004 17:41

notimetowaste -- Don't waste our readers' time with off-topic spouting and cheap shots, since we have enough of those already. If you've got some information pertinent to the topic being discussed, post it.

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Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2004 17:59

The allegations of a massacre by US troops of POWs at Chenogne on 1 Jan 1945 now has a thread of its own, at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=51147

Please post any information you may have on this incident there. This will free up this thread for the intended discussion of the controversial photograph, and what it depicts.

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 May 2004 03:38

Look there and see if you'll find any reference to the crimes that division committed @ Dachau and Italy. I'll save you some time...that info is not there. Is it not there because it never happened (NARA records on the Dachau thing prove that "something" happened) or is it not there because the people who produce these websites only put forth (generally) sanitized versions of the history and/or the "history" they want you to know about?

http://www.45thdivision.org/ is a reinactor society. (see http://www.45thdivision.org/who.htm ) not a veteran’s association.

Given the fact that these are guys, born no earlier than 1960, who like to run around in the woods wearing WWII uniforms as part of a living history hobby, its understandable that Dachau or the prisoner shootings in Sicily aren’t mentioned. It’s not something they want to reinact. Just as their counterparts who like to dress up in W-SS uniforms aren’t going to mention, much less reinact, “cleansing actions” like Oradour or Pinsk or Distovo or Boves.

A more appropriate link from a historical perspective would be the US 45th Infantry Division Museum in at http://www.45thdivisionmuseum.com.

Maybe you could do a little "google cache" search on some of the tobacco companies websites PRIOR to all the lawsuits of late. I am sure they would show TONS of information on how cigarette smoking caused cancer...probably not right? Same thing maybe, huh?
Umm..what does this have to do with anything?
The image shown at the start of this thread is crummy at best...it shows nothing. You on the other hand KNOW that it cannot be caused by the US 11th Armored Division...psychic maybe?
No, just using reason. Lipton suggested that the photo may be from the supposed massacre of 60 PWs by the 11th Armored Division at Chenogne, citing the George Duncan website. But I have yet to see any evidence, online or offline, supporting this claim made by Duncan.
Dead Belgian civilians at the hands of evil Kampgruppe Pieper....now that should pass muster here since everyone knows that that was a blood thirsty lot, right?
Take it up with Lipton, not me - he’s the one who made the suggestion. There’s a lot more evidence to indicate KG Peiper committed war crimes than the US 11th AD did - that’s a fact, even it you don’t like it.
Your quoting what D.T. says means nothing to me and in this case lifts the burden of proof from your shoulders, the only person in this thread claiming to KNOW what this poor image shows (or doesn't)
My claim is that, given what I’ve seen so far, the war crime accusation leveled against the 11th AD seems specious.
As for other units and tarnished histories, here is a short list of reading material for you...
Mark Bando - Breakout (2nd Armored)
Breakout is a great book. Bando did a excellent job attempting to unravel the mystery of Tyschen’s disappearance and death and his book describes many of the sordid and brutal combat experiences of troops from the US 2nd AD and the German 2nd SS Panzer. BTW Chapter 9 in Reynold’s Steel Inferno discusses war crimes committed by both sides during the Normandy campaign, but depends heavily on postwar accounts written by former SS veterans (e.g. Kraemer & Kurt Meyer). You can read Margolian’s Conduct Unbecoming (http://www.goodreports.net/conmar.htm) for another side of the story.

Ultimately, though, the “war-is-hell-and-all-sides-committed-atrocities” theme often seems to be a moral equivalency argument bent on whitewashing the criminality of the Third Reich.
There are a ton more if you really wanted to read the truth (both sides), at least the first 3 (and I believe Reynolds's text as well) is all first hand accounts from the veterans themselves, not so-called "revisionist" writers and/or not on the (limited) approved reading list here.
Most of Reynold’s research is on unit war diaries and secondary sources such as W-SS memoirs by Tieke, Meyer, etc. published in English by Fedorowicz. A lot of his unit strength information is based on Jeff Dugdale’s work (Jeff is perhaps the world’s best expert on WWII German equipment strengths!) . BTW a first hand memoir isn’t necessarily “the truth” - Reyold’s does a great job comparing/contrasting conficting battle account from Tieke et. al. and Allied unit war diaries in his book Sons of the Reich
Aha, so the whole incident is a product of someone's imagination because it is nowhere mentioned in some Anglo-American book about the Waffen-SS and in a couple of internet websites (some of your links are totally useless btw, why post the link to a page about the order of battle of the 11th AD? how does that help?) ??
First of all, the “Anglo-American” book comment is silly. Military history books can be well researched or poorly researched, regardless of whatever language they appear in print.

The reason I posted the OOB of the 11th AD is because if you or anyone else is honestly interested in researching this war crime claim, it would help to know exactly what components of the 11AD were at Chenogne on Dec 31, 1944. History is details, something which unsubstiantiated accusations lack.
Btw, I would like to see your multiple sources for every instance you accused the Waffen-SS on your site of perpetrating war crimes. You can skip Oradour, Malmedy, etc. since we have enough of those already.
I’ll give you three:

LSSAH roundup of Jews, Lago Maggiore region, Sept 1943: See Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy by Susan Zuccotti, Yale University Press, 2000 p. 151; see also The Battle for Rome by Robert Katz and Il Libro della memoria by Picciotto Fargion - plus the post by “c.g.” in the Waffen-SS war crimes sticky above.

21st SS roundup of Jews, Albania, April-July 1944: See Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews p. 704-05 plus Noel Malcom’s Kosovo: A Short History

SS Cavalry Brigade’s “cleansing actions” against Jewish civilians, Aug 1941: See Himmler's Cavalry: The Equestrian SS 1930-45 by Paul J. Wilson, Division Florian Geyer by Charles Trang and The Third Reich: A New History by Michael Burleigh

grassi
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Post by grassi » 15 Dec 2007 23:24

For example in Erich Kern's "Verbrechen am deutschen Volk" or in the book "Alliierte Kriegsverbrechen und Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit" the pic is shown together with photos of gravestones. In these graves civilians and soldiers were buried that had been murdered by US forces in Bavaria, f. e. in Oberpframmern or Haar.
Also see:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 403#211403


I've got a question concerning Haar and Oberpframmern in Bavaria.
I don't have access to Erich Kern's book.

Is there any confirmed (!) info about the supposed German victims (names, birthdates etc.)?

I've got a photo of a grave in Oberpframmern:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... c&start=45
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 141#112141

In addition to that there is a grave in the graveyard in Haar:
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 208#111208
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... 684#122684

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


grassi

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