Alleged massacre of POWs at Webling

[Rudi S.]

Good post, Georg.
Just outside (north) my uncle and I approached Webling (either a few days before or after this above discussed happening) in my uncle's Red-Cross VW when Allied planes strifed the road we were on, which were filled with refugees and Volkssturm soldiers (most of whom did not have a weapon). They only made one pass after which we took off at once to Munich (I was then stationed in Munich on a special mission which I was never told by my superior (Leutnant Bussmann) whwt it was all about. A few days later, the US troops were at the outskirts of Munich and we took off towards Austria where we were taken prisoners of war by US troops - near Brixen i. Tal.
I had never heard anything about the 'Webling' incident until I have read the above posts a few days ago.
I called a friend of mine (who is a few years younger than I am and therefore had not been in the Wehrmacht) whether or not he knew anything about the Webling incident. His answer: he did, but didn't hear anything about the circumstances except that atrocities by the Allies were commited in/near Webling (our hometown is about 20 km north of Dachau).
Apropos KZ Dachau: The general population did not know anything about what's going on in these camps. We assumed that it meant a re-education place for people who have talked against the leadership and of course against A.H. A friend of my grandfather made some kind of a derogatory remark against either the party or the way the war took its course. A person (presumably a Gestapo man) heard him, arrested him, and he was sent to the Dachau KZ. After the war I questioned him about this incident and asked him if he knew what was going on behind the wall (apparently there were two sections of the KZ) and he replied: keine Ahnung gehabt (he had no idea). We (the gullible ones I guess) assumed that it was what the word implied: a place to concentrate in order to become a 'good' citizen.
Greetings,
Rudi S.

[Georg_S]

Thanks Rudi,

But I wonder why I don´t get any reaction. Even if I have read in odler threads that the germans "deserved it" as excuse, but what many forget is that a lot of soldiers who very drafted in the last years was just boys today they would by the UN be considered as children (under 18). And people is very quick to judge even them as criminals. What people don´t udnerstand is that those boys (as example 17 yo) was only 5 years old when AH came to power, those boys didn´t know anything else then NSDAP and AH. If people start to think beoynd that I think a lot of people could get more understanding of why it was as it was in Germany in late 40´s.

I don´t how old you are Rudi, but I think your story is faschinating, to have been in Germany those days and witnessed the whole thing, even if I have meet several vets who participated in the Battle of Berlin 45, and some from the battle of Vienna, I can´t image how it was to be a German in the outskirts of Dachau. One friend of mine who put as POW in Ebensee II, has told me a lot of stories how the US troops treated them, not good.

BTW, I have in my possesion the list of soldiers from KL Mauthausen (Wachsturmbanne) and I know that Rob (it´s a pity that he isn´t answering on this forum since 2 years) was trying to judge the soldiers of Webling as former guards from the KL Dachau because of their age and that´s why they got killed. In my lists the average soldier of the KL Mauthausens Wachsturmbanne is born between 1915 to 1926. OK there is some NCO´s born i the first decade of the 1900´s and some few members who is born in the 1800 century. But to judge older soldiers (SS) as guards just because of their age is a long shot. I have photos of NCO´s at Klagenfurt training camp (Nordland) and they are instructors and their age must be atleast 40.

Just my thoughts,

Have a nice weekend.

Georg

[Penn44]

But to judge older soldiers (SS) as guards just because of their age is a long shot. I have photos of NCO´s at Klagenfurt training camp (Nordland) and they are instructors and their age must be atleast 40.
Georg

Are you trying to say that within the concentration camp system, the SS was not replacing its younger SS camp guards with older ones as the war continued, sending the younger ones to combat? I have seen a listing of about twenty or so Buchenwald camp guards who guarded concentration camp inmates at satellite camp in late 1944 and early 1945. If I remember correctly all were within their 40s.

Penn44

.

[Georg_S]

The common story is that the camps where guarded with old SS-soldiers. But the list of KL Mauthausen kompanies of its Wachsturmbanne show a other thing. Of course there was older soldiers in that list as well, but the majority was as I wrote in my previous input. From a other official lsiting from the US intelligence they have lsited how many soldiers where serving at the camps durin ght ewar, and KL Mauthausen had about 5000 soldiers.

Best reg.

Georg

[Rudi S.]

Guten Tag Georg!
My age? I will be 83 years old in 6 days. If you would like to know more about my experiences, you may read:
http://www.feldgrau.com/interview6.html

Viele Grüsse,
Rudi S.

[Georg_S]

Guten Tag Rudi,

I thank you very much for the link to your story. It was very interessting reading, and I must say that your story about your youth
in Germany is an example what I try to tell others, how it really was. Many thanks.

It was also interessting to read that your former Btl Co. was Otto-Ernst Remer, I had contact with him before his death, and you probably know that he had some difficulties after the war in Germany. Even in the 90´s they putted him in jail because of his statement.

But I wonder one thing as a long tiem citizen of US, you never get "homesick" and wants to get back to Germany? I also wonder one thing but of personal caracter so I send you a private message.

Until next time,

Take care

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,

Tchüss

Georg

[Rudi S.]

Thanks Rudi,

But I wonder why I don´t get any reaction. Even if I have read in odler threads that the germans "deserved it" as excuse, but what many forget is that a lot of soldiers who very drafted in the last years was just boys today they would by the UN be considered as children (under 18). And people is very quick to judge even them as criminals. What people don´t udnerstand is that those boys (as example 17 yo) was only 5 years old when AH came to power, those boys didn´t know anything else then NSDAP and AH. If people start to think beoynd that I think a lot of people could get more understanding of why it was as it was in Germany in late 40´s.

I don´t how old you are Rudi, but I think your story is faschinating, to have been in Germany those days and witnessed the whole thing, even if I have meet several vets who participated in the Battle of Berlin 45, and some from the battle of Vienna, I can´t image how it was to be a German in the outskirts of Dachau. One friend of mine who put as POW in Ebensee II, has told me a lot of stories how the US troops treated them, not good.

BTW, I have in my possesion the list of soldiers from KL Mauthausen (Wachsturmbanne) and I know that Rob (it´s a pity that he isn´t answering on this forum since 2 years) was trying to judge the soldiers of Webling as former guards from the KL Dachau because of their age and that´s why they got killed. In my lists the average soldier of the KL Mauthausens Wachsturmbanne is born between 1915 to 1926. OK there is some NCO´s born i the first decade of the 1900´s and some few members who is born in the 1800 century. But to judge older soldiers (SS) as guards just because of their age is a long shot. I have photos of NCO´s at Klagenfurt training camp (Nordland) and they are instructors and their age must be atleast 40.
Just my thoughts,
Have a nice weekend.
Georg

Hello Georg, I think that I never thanked you for your msg you wrote a little over 1 year ago. Bitte um Entschuldiging.
I am doing fine - I celebrated my 84th birthday 2 weeks ago and still in relatively good health; although I had been given the "Last Rites" in Litauen after our tank was hit by a Stalin II (122 mm) shell.

I live in Texas (for the last 21 years). In case you have not read my Interview, here it is:
http://www.feldgrau.com/interview6.html

Viele Grüsse,
Rudi Salvermoser

[Bergveen]

To the Webling incident and that at Baugnez (Bulge): the US 42nd Division clearly murdered most of the surrendering Waffen-SS soldiers as the many photographs of the slain bodies clearly show, supported by the eyewitness stories.
It is sad that the German incident at Baugnez (clearly following a long distance shooting of the advancing Panzers) were so portrayed if the Germans "slaughtered" the poor US troops, while many were killed by a conventional gun duel. Obviously more than half of the 60+ shot GI's were killed/ murdered like those in Webling. Both parties were so on par.
US and British POW's were however far better treated by the Germans, than Germans in Allied custody. Only Russian POW's were treated worse than all other POW's.

Allied POW's killed: a few thousand.
German POW's killed: 1,6 million
Russian POW's killed: 2,9 million.

I personally think that the US army had a very long list of Webling like incidents (Chenogne 2x, Gela are the most well known because they could not be covered up), the Soviet and German Army had undoubtly a book thick list. The Soviets behaved like a murderous, raping and barbaric killing machine during the war, crushing wounded and dead bodies under their tracks as a common pleasure game. This happened not only in Germany but also in the "liberated" countries of Eastern Europe. The Germans had also long lists of shootings at many places all over Europe. Revenge and downgraded moral are common causes, but many incidents were intentionally ordered and planned.

[LWD]

....
US and British POW's were however far better treated by the Germans, than Germans in Allied custody.

Any documentation to back that up? Are you including all allied countries in one block? You don't mention the other axis powers at all.

I personally think that the US army had a very long list of Webling like incidents ....

documentation PLS

[Penn44]

To the Webling incident and that at Baugnez (Bulge): the US 42nd Division clearly murdered most of the surrendering Waffen-SS soldiers as the many photographs of the slain bodies clearly show, supported by the eyewitness stories.
It is sad that the German incident at Baugnez (clearly following a long distance shooting of the advancing Panzers) were so portrayed if the Germans "slaughtered" the poor US troops, while many were killed by a conventional gun duel. Obviously more than half of the 60+ shot GI's were killed/ murdered like those in Webling. Both parties were so on par.

You need to read up on the Malmedy Massacre, a large number of the American dead did not die from long-range weapons fire, but from close-range shots in the head.

Spare us the revisionist apologetics equating the Waffen SS and the US Army.

From what I have gathered from personal interviews with American veterans as well as a review of the literature, the reprisals of some US units against the Waffen SS was the result of Malmedy, and later, the discovery of concencentration camps. As US troops advanced into Germany, and encountered atrocity after atrocity, perpetrated by the Herrenvolk, and as elements of the German military continued to resist when it was evident the war was lost, it was only natural, and indeed appropriate from a raw, morality of war perspective that the Waffen SS, the military component of the Nazi Party was bound to catch Hell for what they had unleased on others.

An old American street saying goes, “If you don’t start nothin’, there won’t be nothin’. The Germans let slip the dogs of war in September 1939, and they ultimately got bit. Their subsequent suffering during the war and its immediate aftermath serves as a negative reinforcement which reminds them to keep the peace.

The first step towards the road to recovery (like starting wars and terrorizing other peoples) is acceptance that one has a problem and understanding one’s own role in causing that problem. The survivors of the Waffen SS (and its fan club members) need to come to the realization that all the atrocities committed upon the Waffen SS was the direct result of their own long history of crimes against others.

US and British POW's were however far better treated by the Germans, than Germans in Allied custody.

Do you have any sourced evidence to support that claim?

I personally think that the US army had a very long list of Webling like incidents (Chenogne 2x, Gela are the most well known because they could not be covered up), …

Do you have any sourced evidence to support that claim? And no, we don’t want to hear any Goebbels propaganda.

The Soviets behaved like a murderous, raping and barbaric killing machine during the war, crushing wounded and dead bodies under their tracks as a common pleasure game.

Can you possibily generalize any more? Do you have any sourced evidence to support your belief?

Penn44

.

[kerrd]

FYI, the History of the 42nd Infantry Division has been digitized
by CARL:

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/doc ... SOPTR=3158


Dave

[David Thompson]

Thanks for that link, kerrd.

[kerrd]

Thanks for that link, kerrd.

David,

My name is Dave, not kerrd.

[David Thompson]

Dave -- You wrote:

David,

My name is Dave, not kerrd.

Thank you for the correction. However, it is our custom here to reference posters by username. The reason is that the username kerrd is a unique identifier, while the more generic "Dave" or "David" is not.

A quick look at the forum search engine function shows why. If I want to reference a post written by kerrd (http://forum.axishistory.com/memberlist ... le&u=31502), there are only 112 entries. If I want to reference a post I wrote to kerrd, there are only two entries. If I search for all posts to or from or mentioning "Dave" without kerrd, there are 6,362 entries -– 425 pages indexing the posts:
http://forum.axishistory.com/search.php ... mit=Search

The situation is even worse using the search term "David" -- there are 37,155 posts referencing the name -- 2,477 indexing pages total:
http://forum.axishistory.com/search.php ... mit=Search

[BillHermann]

These topics always fascinate me because of the emotion and subjective opinions that seem to always show up. I often stay out of these discussions because I often think that there is little point in the being part of the discussion due to the possibilty of a lock or arguments that have little merit from an objectionable stand point.

The vetrans joining the discussion often have opinions that are based on personal expirences however a percentage of history buffs that lean towards an emotional attachment towards the "elite" Waffen-SS being the great victim of an unjust persecution. The Webling and Dachau incidents being the two that are cited the majority of the time.

The emotion and the frustration by the disagreement of the opinon that the Waffen-SS were a great victim of an unjust persecution seems to inflame discussion even more. The answer to this is quite logical. Even I do not feel the same amount of passion and anger that the Waffen-SS suporters have about what happend to my country men in Normandy.

The simple fact is that most allied soldiers were getting tierd, many were also getting angry after seeing the pain, suffering and death that was inflicted by the SS. I am not defending the killings as similar reasons can be cited for the geraman killng allied air crews and soldiers which in principle is very much the same. The big diffrence though is that the allied armies had a poor image of all SS members and had little patients to think about who was who. The other key point is that by the 1944 / 1945 the Waffen-SS had a poor record and that they had a direct role in the camps. Just like the Germans had a poor opinon of allied bomber crews. The other point that keeps being brought up is where was the justice for these murders. One can argue that point in some cases however there are many cases of all armies including the German Army during the war that did not prosecute their soldiers for crimes against POWs.

One can also concider the fact that if the Germans had Wong would they have charged any of their men for the murders of allied soldiers. I always wonder about the whole sale defence and victimization of a military force that supported a goverment that had such a poor human rights record.