Wehrmacht crimes in Poland in 1939 campaign

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Fredd
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Post by Fredd » 06 Sep 2004 06:03

michael mills wrote:It can also be taken for granted that if any German soldiers were captured by Polish troops there would have been incidents when some of them were shot.


Where, when and give some sources not merely your speculation :idea: Anyway grant whatever you please, but here you have to give SOME sources for your claims...

michael mills wrote:ad participated in the ethnic conflict immediately following the end of the First World War as member of irregular units (the so-called "insurgents"), that was simply retribution for the many acts of terrorism committed by those irregular units in the period 1918-21. As I have written previously, it was Polish nationalist extremists who first introduced terrorist violence into the ethnic rivalry in the German-Polish borderlands.


Same, and how could have been 'retribution' after almost twenty years.

To sum up: I would be the most grateful if you gave ANYsouces for your speculations

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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004 16:42

Obserwator wrote:Polish Institue of National Memory has prepered an exhibition showing the countless atrocites commited by Wehrmacht troops during the september campaign of 1939
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_130804_wehrmacht.html
"With extreme brutality-Wehrmacht's Warcrimes in 1939 campaign"
The exhibition will be also presented in Germany.
Professor Leon Kieres said in opening ceremony that the aim of this is to make Germans aware of atrocites commited by Wehrmacht in Poland since 1939. It's aim is to challenge the German myth that crimes were commited only by members of SS while ordinery soldiers weren't involved in war crimes and genocide. Also it portreys the attempts of german courst to upheld that myth by refusing to cooparate in finding out and convicing Wehrmacht soldiers who took part in warcrimes.
The exhibiton shows crimes commited by German soldiers during the period of 1st of September till 25th of November during which Poland was under the jurisdiction of Wehrmacht and makes it responsible for this crimes.
The myth of Wehrmacht innocence was recently destroyed by exhibitions in Hamburg, but unfortunetly it created another myth-that those crimes started in 1941. The aim of this exhibition is to correct that.

That is a rough translation of parts of the text.



There are documents regarding Kriegsgericht investigations and german soldiers were sentenced to prison, to death etcpp. for killing POWs, raping women, plundering, murdering civilians and branding. Which happens in any army in any war.

Untrue.German Units were taking part in planed genocide not in isolated cases of atrocites. Hitler made it specific to Wehrmachts commanders that they are to kill"every Pole" and specific campaign of ethnic cleansing called Operation Tannenberg was put into action.
As to the assumption of people being persecuted for war crimes-you don't mention that Hitler gave amnesty to all those accused at the beginning of November 1939.


Observator--a Polish Institute of National Memory can hardly be regarded as an unbiased source. Also, just because some crimes were committed does not mean that the Wehrmacht generally commits atrocities. To say that is like saying the US ARmy as a general principle commits crimes against Iraqi POWs. The correct statement is that some US soldiers did, as opposed to US soldiers generally.
I would welcome contributors to present alternative authorities on this matter.

EW

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Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004 16:47

Observator--a Polish Institute of National Memory can hardly be regarded as an unbiased source

It is a neutral Institute that invistigates ALL crimes commited on Polish soil-including those conducted by Poles so your view is unfounded.
I see no reason to consider it biased as it was attacked by polish nationalists for solving the Jedwabne murder.

Also, just because some crimes were committed does not mean that the Wehrmacht generally commits atrocities.

But history and orders issued by their leaders do confirm that.
The correct statement is that some US soldiers did, as opposed to US soldiers generally.

In case of Wehrmacht it is not a correct statement as US soldiers don't have ethnic cleansing as part of their orders and their leaders don't say that they are fighting animals.In Wehrmacht that was the case.

http://www.history-of-the-holocaust.org ... rmach.html

Nazi indoctrination of the Wehrmacht gathered momentum in 1938 at the latest, after Hitler's spectacular successes in annexing territories without resorting to war, and the drafting of Nazi-trained age groups from the Hitlerjugend and the Reich labour services. Any disapproval of Nazi atrocities committed in the wake of the September 1939 campaign in Poland was, for the most part, silenced after the spectacular victory over France in May and June of 1940. Hardly any opposition was voiced to the criminal orders issued by Hitler in connection with the "ideological war" against the Soviet Union that he launched in June 1941. It was only in the fall of 1941 that objections were raised in the Wehrmacht to Hitler's policy, when it became apparent that the original timetable for the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 could not be kept and that, at best, a drawn-out war was likely.


The Wehrmacht and the Murder of the Jews
The Wehrmacht was witness to the mass-murder actions committed by the Einsatzgruppen, and Wehrmacht units were employed in support of these actions. Some of the senior Wehrmacht commanders, such as Walter von Reichenau, justified the murder campaign against the Jews in their orders to the troops. Only a very small number of Wehrmacht officers opposed Hitler's destructive policy.

The claim made after the war that the Wehrmacht was unaware of the "Final Solution" and the other Nazi atrocities is largely unfounded, at least as far as the OKW and the OKH are concerned.

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Einsamer_Wolf
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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004 16:53

Obserwator wrote:
Observator--a Polish Institute of National Memory can hardly be regarded as an unbiased source

It is a neutral Institute that invistigates ALL crimes commited on Polish soil-including those conducted by Poles so your view is unfounded.
I see no reason to consider it biased as it was attacked by polish nationalists for solving the Jedwabne murder.

Also, just because some crimes were committed does not mean that the Wehrmacht generally commits atrocities.

But history and orders issued by their leaders does.
The correct statement is that some US soldiers did, as opposed to US soldiers generally.

In case of Wehrmacht it is not a correct statement as US soldiers don't have ethnic cleansing as part of their orders and their leaders don't say that they are fighting animals.In Wehrmacht that was the case.

http://www.history-of-the-holocaust.org ... rmach.html

Nazi indoctrination of the Wehrmacht gathered momentum in 1938 at the latest, after Hitler's spectacular successes in annexing territories without resorting to war, and the drafting of Nazi-trained age groups from the Hitlerjugend and the Reich labour services. Any disapproval of Nazi atrocities committed in the wake of the September 1939 campaign in Poland was, for the most part, silenced after the spectacular victory over France in May and June of 1940. Hardly any opposition was voiced to the criminal orders issued by Hitler in connection with the "ideological war" against the Soviet Union that he launched in June 1941. It was only in the fall of 1941 that objections were raised in the Wehrmacht to Hitler's policy, when it became apparent that the original timetable for the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 could not be kept and that, at best, a drawn-out war was likely.


The Wehrmacht and the Murder of the Jews
The Wehrmacht was witness to the mass-murder actions committed by the Einsatzgruppen, and Wehrmacht units were employed in support of these actions. Some of the senior Wehrmacht commanders, such as Walter von Reichenau, justified the murder campaign against the Jews in their orders to the troops. Only a very small number of Wehrmacht officers opposed Hitler's destructive policy.


A distinction between occupation forces and combat units would probably be in order. Do you really expect me to beleive that mechanized Panzer units are going to stop their advance to kill civilians? Laughable. I suppose Wittman and Carius did not engage Soviet armor on the Russian Steppes, but mowed down Russian and Jewish civilians.
Witnessing by the way is not the same thing as engaging in. Silence does not mean endorsement, particularly in the throes of war in which combat units are more preoccupied in not getting killed.

EW

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Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004 17:03

Do you really expect me to beleive that mechanized Panzer units are going to stop their advance to kill civilians?

Actually they did :

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/zbro ... ia_wrz.htm
3 września we wsi Bugaj, gm. Dmenin, pow. Radomsko, Niemcy zestrzelili samolot polski biorąc do niewoli jego 2-osobową załogę. Jednego z jeńców po storturowaniu [wycięto mu język, uszy i nos], zamordowano. Zbrodni dokonali żołnierze 4. DPanc XVI Korpusu 10. Armii gen. von Reichenaua.

"On 3 September in village Bugaj district Dmenin Radomsko Germans shoot down a polish airplane, taking 2prisoners(the crew). One of the prisoners was tortured -his tongue, nose and ears were cut off and was murdered.The atrocity was conducted by soldiers from 4 Pancer Division of XVI Corpse of 10 Army gen von Reichenaun."
8 września w Mszczonowie, pow. Błonie, Niemcy rozstrzelali publicznie na targowisku świńskim 11 jeńców, w tym 8 w mundurach i 3 w ubraniach cywilnych. Zbrodni dokonali żołnierze 4. DPanc. XVI Korpusu 10. Armii.

8 September -Mszczonow Błonie, German shoot publicly on pig trading market 11 POWs -8uniformed, 3 in civilan clothing.Atrocity commited by 4 Pancer Division...


There lots of reports on various Wehrmaht untis commiting killings of civilans on their free time during the campaign or attacking civilans during military operations.
Furthermore since Poland was under the administration of Wehrmacht up to October 25th IIRC the crimes commited by German forces fall unto their responsiblity.
Witnessing by the way is not the same thing as engaging in

As representitves of Govt they have to duty to stop unlawful activites commited by their civilians.
Furthermore the other quote gives direct evidence of their patricipation in those actions.
http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pr ... hetto.html
Units of the 1st Mountain Division and groups of the HJ (Hitlerjugend) also took an active part in round-ups for forced labour and execution

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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004 18:01

That the some men in the 4th Panzer Division committed atrocity does not mean that the Panzer Corps did as a general matter.
Additonally--distinction between combat troops and occupations forces.

EW

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Post by boobazzz » 30 Sep 2004 18:34

yeah, Eimsaimer, becuase they were just bunch of tourists, not military unit with strict ordinance. As it used to be in Heers for example.
They never did anything without a distinct order, so the argument like 'yeah, some of them did, but generally they're nice guys' is just weak and senseless. So the resposnibility goes to the highest command of the unit, and those soldiers stood for the disgrace of the whle unit as such.
I can see no other reasonable explanaition.
cheers.
b.

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Post by David Thompson » 30 Sep 2004 21:07

Einsamer_Wolf -- You remarked:
Do you really expect me to beleive that mechanized Panzer units are going to stop their advance to kill civilians? Laughable.

This is a research area of the forum. "Laughable?" -- Your personal opinions and reactions are of no interest here, and there is a standing policy against churlish posts. Our readers are looking for information. If you have some, post it with your opinions. If you don't, move on. The section rules are posted for all to see at:

viewtopic.php?t=53962

Future nonconforming posts from you are subject to deletion without warning.
Last edited by David Thompson on 30 Sep 2004 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Einsamer_Wolf » 30 Sep 2004 21:17

It is not an opinon--it is reasoning and general knowledge. If you want sources--ok look at Glantz's book on Kursk. Panzer Divisions engaging Soviet armor pretty much every page. If you insist I can get you the ISBN at the end of the day. Stein's book on the Waffen SS also comments how the Einsatzgruppen followed advancing columns and committed genocidal acts as the combat formations (both Waffen SS and regular Heer) continued to advance.
May I asky why you reprimand me and not boobazz? Not a single fact in his post! I would really like to know.

EW

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Post by David Thompson » 30 Sep 2004 21:22

Einsamer_Wolf -- Your statement, quoted above, was merely a personal opinion, given without reference to sources and in addition, offensively delivered. Your attempt to supply some authority, unaccompanied by any page citation, is a little late. You have two options -- you may comply with the section rules in the future, or you will have your nonconforming posts deleted here.

As for your question:
May I asky why you reprimand me and not boobazz? Not a single fact in his post! I would really like to know.
You have a much longer track record of violations of section rules than he. You were banned, and allowed to post again on the assumption that you had learned some manners and had the self-control to obey the rules of the forum. Whether or not that assumption is mistaken remains to be seen. As far as I'm concerned, however, you've been warned repeatedly, so you have nothing coming by way of being indulged.

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Post by Obserwator » 30 Sep 2004 21:41

It is not an opinon--it is reasoning and general knowledge

Specific knowledge on other hand points to incidents where Pancer units engaged in war crimes-as examples I provided show.
4 września wkraczające do Katowic oddziały niemieckie napotkały opór stawiany im przez drobne oddziały dawnych powstańców śląskich i harcerzy. W odwecie wziętych do niewoli 80 patriotów rozstrzelano w Parku Kościuszki. Zbrodni dokonali żołnierze 8. DPanc. VIII Korpusu 14. Armii gen. Lista.

4th September-German units face resistence when coming into Katowice from small units of boy scouts and and former silasian insurgents.In revenge 80 known polish patriots are taken and shot at Kosciuszko Park.Atrocity commited by soldiers from 8 Pancer Division of VIII Corps of 14 Army under Gen.List

5 września we wsi Toporzysko-Bystra do niewoli niemieckiej dostał się żołnierz polski, który zagubił swój oddział. Niemcy kazali jeńcowi uciekać, po czym zastrzelili go "w trakcie ucieczki". Zbrodni dokonali żołnierze 2. DPanc. XVIII Korpusu 14. Armii.

5 September-Toporzysko Bystra village.A polish soldier is taken into custody who lost his unit.Germans order him to run and then shoot him "while escaping".Atrocity commited by soldiers of 2 Pancer Division of XVIII corps 14 Army.
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/zbro ... ia_wrz.htm
Last edited by Obserwator on 06 Oct 2004 17:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Shc » 02 Oct 2004 02:00

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Post by Fugazi » 02 Oct 2004 09:58

I've no doubt Polish sources can provide countless stories of atrocities committed by German forces in 1939. Equally, after 1939 the Germans were able to produce countless stories of atrocities carried out by Poles against them (some of the titles published back then can be found on the right-wing site http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/deutsch/archivindex.html.

All that this tells me is that Poles and Germans don't like each other very much, and each side invokes the "revenge" motive for the atrocities they commit upon each other, rather than admit to simple hatred as a motive.

If the point of this thread is to try and show that Germans are somehow worse people than Poles, it will fail because this is patently untrue. Humans are not good and evil according to their nationality. Can we all agree on this? Or is there some kind of atrocity competition going on here?

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Post by boobazzz » 02 Oct 2004 10:50

Fugazi wrote:I've no doubt Polish sources can provide countless stories of atrocities committed by German forces in 1939. Equally, after 1939 the Germans were able to produce countless stories of atrocities carried out by Poles against them (some of the titles published back then can be found on the right-wing site http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/deutsch/archivindex.html.

All that this tells me is that Poles and Germans don't like each other very much, and each side invokes the "revenge" motive for the atrocities they commit upon each other, rather than admit to simple hatred as a motive.

If the point of this thread is to try and show that Germans are somehow worse people than Poles, it will fail because this is patently untrue. Humans are not good and evil according to their nationality. Can we all agree on this? Or is there some kind of atrocity competition going on here?


Yes, but the question is which stories are false and which are true. And, as I presume, this forum is to judge it. Actually I find statement like yours as a model one for revisionist attitude (although I am not saying by that your're revisist). I thought that nowadays there is no 'Polish side' and 'German side' and after the Nurimberg trial who is really guilty for all those horrids. Or maybe we should start inveting new histry???

I've been looking for some sources (in English) on Polish crime on Germans on the virge of outbreak of the war. All I could find was this Nazi Ministry of Foreign Affairs report, which is delibalaterly falsed to justify the invasion. This is strictly on events of 3.09.1939 in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg when German 'Vth collumn' attacked Polsih Army 'Pomorze' withdawing through the city. Some of the Germans were killed during the battle, some of them were executed as regular saboteurs on the basis of Polish law in the force at the time. There is naturally the question if this law was forced on reasonable basis in all the cases, and to what extend the uncontrolled mob, full of hatred and resentiment took part in it.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... ody+Sunday

Nazi propaganda inflated this to some ridiculous exted to justufy its own crimes:

http://www.fact-index.com/b/by/bydgoszcz.html

Anyway, it's been discussed here long time before, so I don't want to ellaborate on it anymore. Besides this is still to be examined by the IPN:

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/4799

In fact the argument "we humans are all like that" is not the case here, as if it was there would be no sense in mantaining e.g. forums like this one. We can not pass on accepting such a fact and we must not forget.
Perceiving it as a 'atrocities competition' is riduluous to me.

Anyway, the point is not which nation is better one (cause this is sensless as a rule) but the topic is Wehrmacht crimes in Poland and I see no reason why we should not talk about it. If you want to discuss Polish crimes in Poland in 1939 just start a new thread, why not taking a closer look at it also.

Besides, do you really believe that all of us - humans - are able to set death camps and plan genocide as a tool of regular policy?
I doubt that, I believe that majority of humans are righteous, otherwise the specie would have not existed for a long time.
Hitler lost the war all in all.

cheers.
b.

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Post by Fugazi » 02 Oct 2004 12:00

Besides, do you really believe that all of us - humans - are able to set death camps and plan genocide as a tool of regular policy?


No, but obviously a significant proportion of us are, if history teaches us anything at all.

I'm glad we can agree that human good and evil are not a matter of nationality. I just found that a difficult conclusion to draw from your and Observator's posts.

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