Wehrmacht crimes in Poland in 1939 campaign

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 13:18
Location: Australia

Post by Peter H » 02 Oct 2004 14:53

As regards the POWs run over by a tank--how reliable are Polish sources circa 1964 during the Communist era?

2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964)

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 02 Oct 2004 15:24

Peter, but why should they not be plausible anymore? Are we going to question every resaerch on the issue undertaken before 1989? On what basis?
In my opnion the date of publishing proves nothing. You can judge the credibility of the authors, but not upon the time of research IMHO.
Do you think that Szymon Datner is not plausible? Why?
cheers.
b.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 02 Oct 2004 17:29

boobazzz wrote:In my opnion the date of publishing proves nothing. You can judge the credibility of the authors, but not upon the time of research IMHO.


Do you judge the material produced in dictatorial Germany 1933-1945 the same way as the material produced in dicatorial eastern Europe post war?

/Marcus

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 02 Oct 2004 18:23

Marcus Wendel wrote:
boobazzz wrote:In my opnion the date of publishing proves nothing. You can judge the credibility of the authors, but not upon the time of research IMHO.


Do you judge the material produced in dictatorial Germany 1933-1945 the same way as the material produced in dicatorial eastern Europe post war?

/Marcus


Marcus, what are you trying to state by that? Are you trying to compare nazi Germany to communist Poland? On what basis? Literature? In my opinion the comparision fails even in this area.

Besides, I never judge such material en masse here. As far as i remeber, on this forum I was refering only to this publication:

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/ ... _intro.htm

which is undoubtfully of propaganda nature. I judged it on a basis of publisher and counter publications on the issue. Date is informative too in this case, but is not the decisive one. So hereby I doubt it plausibility.

Anyway, does that mean that all research conducted in the pre-communist era is justa crap, because nazis (as you called it 'dictatorial')produced crap? Is there any rationale for such comparision or is it just rhetorics?

Actually I don't claim the history was not officailly twisted in Poland before 1989. Yes it was, especially very much the one on Polish-Soviet, relations like invasion of 17.09, Katyn, Second Republic and so on. But I think paradoxically the research on nazi crime was quite free (especially the one after 1956) as there would be nothig else to discredit nazis even more. Not after Auschwitz, Treblinka, Warsaw atrocieties, and many, many, many more of them.

Tell me, why this case of tank-trampling would discredit Germans more? After what Heers didi on 8.09.1939 in Ciepielow for example? And this case was also described in pre-1989 period.

There was special comision raised in Poland after the war - Głowna Komisja Badan Zbrodni Hitlerowskich (The Central Commission of Research on Hitlerite Atrrocities) which cummulated a huge load of material on discussed issues (and believe me killing someone with tank is just trivial in comparision to what is described there). Nowadays the Commission exists no more, but its heritage was transferred to the Institute of National Memory (Instytut Pamieci Narodowej), which holds the files as a primary source for further studies. And I NEVER heard it was questionned by any of reputable historians, including Western ones.

So, finishing my post, let me invert the quesion: Do you yourself judge the material produced in dictatorial Germany 1933-1945 the same way as the material produced in dicatorial eastern Europe post war? Because I do, but to a limited extend. The one reffering to Katyn for example. Criticall aproach is of key importance here, not just the date of publication.

cheers.
b.
Last edited by boobazzz on 02 Oct 2004 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 02 Oct 2004 18:34

boobazzz wrote:Marcus, what are you trying to state by that? Are you trying to compare nazi Germany to communist Poland? On what basis?


As you stated that you don't judge the material by the era it was produced in, I was just curious if that applies as much to Nazi era material as Communist era material, both systems were dictatorships that made much use of propaganda.

boobazzz wrote:So, finishing my post, let me invert the quesion: Do you yourself judge the material produced in dictatorial Germany 1933-1945 the same way as the material produced in dicatorial eastern Europe post war? Because I do, but to a limited extend. The one reffering to Katyn for example.


I distrust all material produced in dictatorships, regardless of ideology.

/Marcus

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 02 Oct 2004 18:48

As you stated that you don't judge the material by the era it was produced in, I was just curious if that applies as much to Nazi era material as Communist era material, both systems were dictatorships that made much use of propaganda.


I was not referrihng to the era but to judging by the date of publishing. Era is much broader notion, don;t you think?

Moreover, I thought that Nazi state was totalitarian one not just dictatorship (which was the case of post-war Poland, agrees). I can see the difference here too.

Marcus Wendel wrote:
I distrust all material produced in dictatorships, regardless of ideology.

/Marcus


Including the one by the Commission I described? Why? Why do you refuse plausibility of Poles examining what Germans did to them during the war? Only because they were forced to adopt the communist regime?
There are hundreds of thousands testimonies being published just after the war, inlcuding for example Z. Nalkowska "Medaliony" (Medalions), which is a masterpiece of report literature.


http://nupress.northwestern.edu/title.c ... 101-1743-6

Can we refuse a credibility to it, as it was first published in some early 50s??? There are more, like the ones by Tadesz Borowski for example.

Sorry, byt the radical attitude you present towards publications has nothing to do with a critical approach to sources. In my opninion of cource.

cheers.
b.

ps. sorry, but I still edited my previous post while you posted the answer, so there might be some discrepancies.
Last edited by boobazzz on 02 Oct 2004 19:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 02 Oct 2004 18:58

boobazzz,

I distrust all things produced in dictatorships, that does not mean that I deny the fact that even dictatorships can on occassion produce something worthwhile. Even so, those few worthwhile things are in my opinion to be distrusted until proven to be correct by other more reliable sources.
The same thing applies to other sources, for example authors with an obvious agenda who have shown themselves willing to sacrifice the truth to further that agenda.

Taking the nature of the political system into account has everything to do with a critical approach, it is just one of the many things one must consider when looking at a source.

/Marcus

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 02 Oct 2004 19:32

Marcus Wendel wrote:boobazzz,

I distrust all things produced in dictatorships, that does not mean that I deny the fact that even dictatorships can on occassion produce something worthwhile. Even so, those few worthwhile things are in my opinion to be distrusted until proven to be correct by other more reliable sources.
The same thing applies to other sources, for example authors with an obvious agenda who have shown themselves willing to sacrifice the truth to further that agenda.

Taking the nature of the political system into account has everything to do with a critical approach, it is just one of the many things one must consider when looking at a source.

/Marcus


Totally agreed - this actually what I meant. I was just claiming that the date is just not enough to question the research as such. Anyway there is still question if the author - Szymon Datner - is plausible enough. I did a bit of saerch and it looks that he is quite all right, he does not seem to be in strict liason with communist authorities at the time. He was just a regular scientist/researcher specialising in Nazi crimes and Holocaust. . The question is to what extend the censorship intervened, but ASAIK the Polish censorship was of preventing, not inventive nature.

cheers.
b.

szopen
Member
Posts: 814
Joined: 21 May 2004 15:31
Location: poznan, poland

Post by szopen » 03 Oct 2004 10:23

Before 1989 in myimpression it went like this:

Before XIX century: you werote whatever you like. If before 1960, there was however demand for finding examples of class struggle and some rhetoric. The more specialised subject, the more proffessional research.

Before 1939: reliable articles started to appear in academic in 1980s, before: depends, thrash evcerything before 1956, from else substract rhetorci and everything related to USSR.

After 1980 generally it's normal ihstory, unless it is popular work, not academic.

Obserwator
Banned
Posts: 557
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 18:50
Location: Poland

Post by Obserwator » 06 Oct 2004 15:46

I read some of Hitler's Willing Executioners, but it made me feel sick so I stopped.

Reading witnesses testimonies as to Germany Army's behaviour in Poland also fills with disgust and sorrow.Doesn't mean it isn't truth because it is so horrible.
For example:
http://www.infowarszawa.pl/index.php?ak ... az&nn=3018
Czwartego dnia wojny w lesie pod Orzeszynem żołnierze Wehrmachtu rozstrzelali 21 wziętych do niewoli żołnierzy Wojska Polskiego. W Brwinowie 13 września 1939 r. żandarmi zamordowali 11 osób, a dwa dni później w Długiej Szlacheckiej koło podwarszawskiego Halinowa Wehrmacht zabił 42 osoby. Pod koniec miesiąca na rynku w Karczewie Niemcy dokonali egzekucji 75 osób. Blisko połowę stanowiły kobiety z dziećmi.

On fourth day of war in forest near Orzeszyn soldiers of Wehrmacht executed 21 polish POWs taken prisoner.Ib Brwin 13 September guandarms murdered 11 people and two days later in Długa Szlachecka near underWarsaw Halinow Wehrmach killed 42 people.At the end of the month on the marketplace in Karczew Germans executed 75
people.Almost half of them were women and children
This a fragment of the exhibition documenting Wehrmacht crimes in 1939 during the September campaign in Poland.
I will translate more later.

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 06 Oct 2004 17:36

Fugazi wrote: I'm still looking for a better explanation - me and a whole bunch of other people I guess.


So I can just tell you - good luck, if you want to find it, you will find it. There are hudreds of nite explanations of German crimes during the WWII, including Wehrmacht. Whole range of authors, from Eichmann to Irving. Which does not mean it will bring you any closer to the truth. rather the opposite.

I just want to add, that the citation provided by Obsewator comes from a catalouge of exibition :"With the most brutality - Wehrmacht cirmes September - October 1939". the exibition was oranised by IPN (National Memory Institute) with the photos made by Wehrmacht soldiers themselves, often drown from family albums (sic!). I've seen it in King's Castle in Warsaw. Believe me, the photos are truly shocking, showing vitims and executioners at the atrocities sites. There are hundreds of them. Not doubt they present soldiers of regular army - Wehrmacht.
There is not question to the autencity of those photos also.
link on opening of the exibition in Warsaw (unfortunatelly in Polish, I'll translate it when I have some more time; basically it is on the very opening and the guests invited, including prof. Bartoszewski for example, famous founder of Zegota and former minister of foreign affairs - the guy in the last photo of the first raw.):

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_130804_wehrmacht.html

Besides, similar exibition cirulates Germany since some 1994. Along with protests from neonazis mostly AFAIK.

viewtopic.php?t=1432&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Cheers.
b.
Last edited by boobazzz on 06 Oct 2004 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
boobazzz
Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 21:50
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post by boobazzz » 09 Oct 2004 11:23

Gentelmen - let's get back to the topic - Wehrmacht crimes in Poland.

It gets a litle bit boring when it is constantly twisted towards Germans collective guilt or not. Regardless if there exists one.

cheers.

b.
btw. It always puzzles me why, when we discuss this sort of topic , someone steps in and claims that this is on German nation as such and on its general qualities. In my opnion one's personal perceptiopn of deeds does not necesarirly relfects the concept of discussion. Which is research on history in firts place here, or at least I think so.

User avatar
Peter H
Member
Posts: 28628
Joined: 30 Dec 2002 13:18
Location: Australia

Post by Peter H » 09 Oct 2004 14:54

Would it also be possible to conclude that any such Wehrmacht crimes were not sanctioned by the military authorities?

General von Brauchitsch's famous meeting with Hitler on the 5th November 1939 dealt with the supposed disciplinary problems encountered during the Polish campaign and the resulting court martials in effect.This was not the old Imperial Army but a force containing some age classes undertrained and hesitant in discipline.This could be a recipe for war crimes by individuals or small groups as well?

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23291
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 11 Oct 2004 10:38

tonyh -- Well put.

Obserwator
Banned
Posts: 557
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 18:50
Location: Poland

Post by Obserwator » 13 Oct 2004 21:28

Actually the thread was on Wehrmacht crimes in Poland, but it is once again twisted to the responsibility of German

To my despair frankly.I really wish the thread will continue with fruitfull discussion on incidents where Wehrmach commited crimes in Poland during that campaign and the motivation of soldiers for commiting those crimes.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”