Estonian war crimes

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Dan
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Estonian war crimes

#1

Post by Dan » 29 Jul 2002, 07:15

What do you think of this?
Estonia Offers Reward For Justice

Tallinn (AFP) -- An Estonian man has offered a reward for $20,000 for information on Jewish officers of the Soviet KGB involved in repression against Estonians, a newspaper reported on Wednesday.

"For my part, I'm offering 20,000 US dollars to everyone whose honest confession brings about a fair court's verdict of guilty on criminals of the Jewish nationality who while serving in Soviet repressive bodies in the 1940s committed genocidal crimes in Estonia," Heiki Kortsparn was quoted as saying in the weekly Kesknadal.

The offer follows a $10,000 reward announced last week by the Nazi-hunting Simon Wiesenthal Centre for information on residents in the three Baltic states who collaborated with the Nazis in the holocaust.

The $20,000 reward offer was published in a letter to the editor of the newspaper of Estonia's Centrist Party, which is in a two-party coalition government, but the party has not discussed the issue.

"We've published all sorts of letters representing all sorts of views. The party doesn't discuss all letters before publishing them." Kesknadal's editor-in-chief, Heamar Lenk said.

The Soviets deported over 30,000 Estonians to Siberia when they took over the country at the outset and after World War II. Many of the deported Estonian citizens suffered from disease and deprivation and died from the inhumane conditions.

Estonia prosecutors have brought cases for crimes against humanity against several ex-KGB officers for their involvement in the deportations.

Roland
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#2

Post by Roland » 29 Jul 2002, 12:50

Thats a great news! That should have been done long time ago! I just wish that other countries ( Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraina etc.) also fallow Estonias lead. War criminals are war criminals. It does not matter what race or nationality. They all should be prossecuted!


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Annelie
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#3

Post by Annelie » 29 Jul 2002, 14:33

Dan:

What is the source for this article?
I should like to see if there is an follow up.

Thankyou
Annelie

ps. BTW I also think it is about time.....but time is running out!

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Marcus
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#4

Post by Marcus » 29 Jul 2002, 16:25

All warcriminals should be prosecuted in my opinion, but to single out only Jewish members of the NKVD is not right, why should they be treated differently than the non-Jewish members?

/Marcus

Dan
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#5

Post by Dan » 29 Jul 2002, 16:26

Annelie wrote:Dan:

What is the source for this article?
I should like to see if there is an follow up.

Thankyou
Annelie

ps. BTW I also think it is about time.....but time is running out!
Annelie, the quote is from a Russian newspaper with citations at Irving's website:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/BoD/origins/Estonia1.html

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Reigo
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#6

Post by Reigo » 29 Jul 2002, 17:02

The guy who made that offer said in a newspaper interview that he was pissed off because of Zuroff's actions here (I think I have enlightened these on this forum already).

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Mait
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#7

Post by Mait » 29 Jul 2002, 17:12

Marcus Wendel wrote:All warcriminals should be prosecuted in my opinion, but to single out only Jewish members of the NKVD is not right, why should they be treated differently than the non-Jewish members?

/Marcus
Now, I basically agree. BUT - Zuroff is picking out only Estonian members of SS. So, where is the difference?

Best Regards,

Mait.

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Marcus
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#8

Post by Marcus » 29 Jul 2002, 17:15

Mait,

I have not claimed that there was any difference.

/Macrus

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Mait
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#9

Post by Mait » 29 Jul 2002, 19:31

Sorry, misinterpreted Your answer.
Anyway, I believe all war criminals should be tried, no matter of their nationality or side in war.

Best Regards,

Mait.

Caldric
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#10

Post by Caldric » 29 Jul 2002, 22:16

They have already ruined their cause if they are going after just Jews from the NKVD. I mean that is about most stupid thing I have heard, today anyway, I mean if they are non-Jewish does that give them immunity?

So it is not time for it, because they are still to blind by their own hatreds.

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#11

Post by Reigo » 30 Jul 2002, 00:03

They have already ruined their cause if they are going after just Jews from the NKVD. I mean that is about most stupid thing I have heard, today anyway, I mean if they are non-Jewish does that give them immunity?

So it is not time for it, because they are still to blind by their own hatreds.
Your statement is really pointless since this Heiki Kortsparn is just a ordinary citizen, he is not related with the Estonian government.
No war criminals have immunity in Estonia. If there is actually real proof then the alleged criminals will be prosecuted. The 20 000$ offer which was made, must be looked in close connection with Zuroffs 10 000$ offer.
Basically Kortsparn has admitted that his offer was as improper as Zuroff's, but he did this because he was so pissed off because of Zuroff's actions.

There's no need to start to invent stories about "them" who "are still blind by their own hatreds."

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Caldric
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#12

Post by Caldric » 30 Jul 2002, 00:11

Your statement is really pointless since this Heiki Kortsparn is just a ordinary citizen, he is not related with the Estonian government.
How is my statement pointless? Did he or did he not state he wanted to go after the "Jewish" members of the NKVD?
There's no need to start to invent stories about "them" who "are still blind by their own hatreds."
I did not invent it, I did not have to it is right up there ^ go read it. Or are you telling me this is not racially motivated:

For my part, I'm offering 20,000 US dollars to everyone whose honest confession brings about a fair court's verdict of guilty on criminals of the Jewish nationality

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Mait
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#13

Post by Mait » 30 Jul 2002, 00:12

Caldric wrote:They have already ruined their cause if they are going after just Jews from the NKVD. I mean that is about most stupid thing I have heard, today anyway, I mean if they are non-Jewish does that give them immunity?

So it is not time for it, because they are still to blind by their own hatreds.
Some corrections. This THEY is just a man who has offered 20 000 USD for leads that helps to bring Jewish NKVD workers to justice. Just as mr. Zuroff has offered 10 000 USD for Estonians working for Germans.

So basically, taken in local context -

1. One man offers money as reward for clues that help to bring criminals from one nationality (Estonians) who worked for one state´s criminal organization (SS for instance) to justice

and

2. Second man offers money as reward for clues that help to bring criminals from another nationality (Jews) who worked for another state´s criminal organization (NKVD for instance) to justice.

Therefore, formal-logically simplifiyng the situation we have:

The information [D] that is paid for consist of following elements

A1 (Estonian) + B1 (working for SS) + C1 (performed activity that is defined by law as crime) = D (information that brings forth monetary reward)

A2 (Jew) + B2 (working for NKVD) + C2 (performed activity that is defined by law as crime) = D (information that brings forth monetary reward)

Now I would comment that basically the B1 equals B2. Both NKVD and SS are organizations that were oppressive and commited crimes against humanity. [B1 = B2]

Also, according to Estonian criminal law the crimes against humanity and genocide are not defined by nationality of the victims or the political argumentation of the criminal but according to the elements of act done. So I would suggest that C1 equals C2. [C1 = C2]

Therefore:

A1+B1+C1=X
A2+B2+C2=X

whereas we know that

B1=B2 and C1=C2

Now the only part with difference is A1 and A2 - the nationality. So, one cannot say honestly and with pure heart that A1+B1+C1=D1 is justice, while A2+B2+C2=D2 is anti-semitism, because the only real difference is the nationality. And we all know how the idea that one nationality is better than the other is called.


Best Regards,

Mait.

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Mait
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#14

Post by Mait » 30 Jul 2002, 00:18

There's no need to start to invent stories about "them" who "are still blind by their own hatreds."
I did not invent it, I did not have to it is right up there ^ go read it. Or are you telling me this is not racially motivated:

For my part, I'm offering 20,000 US dollars to everyone whose honest confession brings about a fair court's verdict of guilty on criminals of the Jewish nationality
I am sorry? In that case is Mr. Zuroff´s motivation in catching war criminals of Estonian nationality racially motivated? Do You suggest perhaps that he is a racist?

Best Regards,

Mait.

Caldric
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#15

Post by Caldric » 30 Jul 2002, 00:23

1. One man offers money as reward for clues that help to bring criminals from one nationality (Estonians) who worked for one state´s criminal organization (SS for instance) to justice

and

2. Second man offers money as reward for clues that help to bring criminals from another nationality (Jews) who worked for another state´s criminal organization (NKVD for instance) to justice.
No your logic is broke, to start with it was not JUST THE JEWS working for the NKVD. Secondly one is choosing one of the religious racial persons involved and singling them out. So yes the who thing is racially motivated, clear cut.

If they want to say "We are offering a reward for any member of the NKVD that was involved with the atrocities committed in Estonia..."

No that is to easy, lets pick out the Jews that worked for the NKVD.

If that is not racially motivated then I need the term explained to me.

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