Tito - war criminal?

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mel43
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#31

Post by mel43 » 18 Jun 2004, 16:51

Tito was a war criminal, he and his government documented everything they did to the croatian people, thousands were killed by him and his men. Not just during the war or towards the end of the war but even long after the war. These archival documents are only now coming to surface and Im sure we will hear more about them in the future. I have in my possession a copy of many family names who he killed or imprisioned in the Gospic area. All is documented.

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Marcus
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#32

Post by Marcus » 18 Jun 2004, 18:13

Kingdom of Montenegro wrote:No it is not ok to kill innocent people,but question is were that people innocent?.They didn't kill people who stayed in Croatia,but those who tryed to get away and in the eyes of Partizans they were war criminals who killed their families.
You claimed they were guilty earlier in the thread, so the burden of proof lies with you.

As far as I'm concerned, it was simply murder. If they were guilty of crimes, bring them to court, don't just shoot them, because if you do, you are no better then those you claim to fight.
Kingdom of Montenegro wrote:British knew what will happen to these people if their surrender them,but in spite of that they surrendered them to Partizans.British also thought that they were war criminals,so you can blaim them as mach as Partizans.
Does that make murder any better?

/Marcus


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Kingdom of Montenegro
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#33

Post by Kingdom of Montenegro » 18 Jun 2004, 20:41

Marcus,What would you do if after 4 years of battle you finaly go home and realise that your wive and children are taken away and killed in some koncetracion camp?Put yourself into position of those people who experienced that.I don't think that Tito ordered these killings,it just happened.Partizans were led with rage in that moment.In their eyes these Croats who tried to escape were people who killed their wives and sons for god sake.NDH's goal in WW2 was to exterminate whole nations.Fact is that after Bleiburg there was not killings of Croats.There were people from all parts of SFRJ that have been taken to Goli Otok,but it was not extermination camp,people come back from there after few years.It is not something terible to send in jail people who are working against country.I mean what would happen to someone in the USA if he says that he is supporting Al Kaida and Osama bin Laden?I think he would go to jail.

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Marcus
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#34

Post by Marcus » 18 Jun 2004, 20:51

Kingdom of Montenegro,

Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.

/Marcus

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Allen Milcic
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#35

Post by Allen Milcic » 18 Jun 2004, 20:54

Kingdom of Montenegro wrote:Marcus,What would you do if after 4 years of battle you finaly go home and realise that your wive and children are taken away and killed in some koncetracion camp?Put yourself into position of those people who experienced that.I don't think that Tito ordered these killings,it just happened.Partizans were led with rage in that moment.In their eyes these Croats who tried to escape were people who killed their wives and sons for god sake.NDH's goal in WW2 was to exterminate whole nations.Fact is that after Bleiburg there was not killings of Croats.There were people from all parts of SFRJ that have been taken to Goli Otok,but it was not extermination camp,people come back from there after few years.It is not something terible to send in jail people who are working against country.I mean what would happen to someone in the USA if he says that he is supporting Al Kaida and Osama bin Laden?I think he would go to jail.
So you are claiming that:
1.) Every single Partizan had wives and/or children killed not only by Croatians, but by Croatians in concentration camps;
2.) That Tito, the commander-in-chief of the NOVJ, not only did not 'order' the massive killings at Bleiburg, on the Krizni Put etc., but that he in fact had 'no idea' that 150,000 + persons were being mudered by his own troops for weeks after the end of WW2;
3.) That the thousands of civilian refugees that had joined the Croatian Armed Forces in their retreat towards Austria were also, somehow, guilty of crimes;
4.) That every single Croatian soldier was responsible for the excesses of some members of the Ustase;
5.) That it is acceptable and understandable that members of a victorious armed force can exact indiscriminate vengeance upon members of the defeated forces;
6.) That no Croatians were killed by Tito's state security forces after the Bleiburg massacres;
7.) The the goal of the NDH was to exterminate entire nations;
8.) That every single Croatian is responsible for the acts of the NDH government.

These are your positions, and you are standing by them?

Allen/

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K.Kocjancic
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#36

Post by K.Kocjancic » 18 Jun 2004, 21:06

Don't forget that among victims were also:
- Slovenian anti-revolutionary fighters and their families,
- Slovenian civilists, who retrieded to Gosposvetsko polje,
- Serbian Četniki,...

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Kingdom of Montenegro
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#37

Post by Kingdom of Montenegro » 18 Jun 2004, 22:32

Allen Milcic wrote:So you are claiming that:
1.) Every single Partizan had wives and/or children killed not only by Croatians, but by Croatians in concentration camps;
2.) That Tito, the commander-in-chief of the NOVJ, not only did not 'order' the massive killings at Bleiburg, on the Krizni Put etc., but that he in fact had 'no idea' that 150,000 + persons were being mudered by his own troops for weeks after the end of WW2;
3.) That the thousands of civilian refugees that had joined the Croatian Armed Forces in their retreat towards Austria were also, somehow, guilty of crimes;
4.) That every single Croatian soldier was responsible for the excesses of some members of the Ustase;
5.) That it is acceptable and understandable that members of a victorious armed force can exact indiscriminate vengeance upon members of the defeated forces;
6.) That no Croatians were killed by Tito's state security forces after the Bleiburg massacres;
7.) The the goal of the NDH was to exterminate entire nations;
8.) That every single Croatian is responsible for the acts of the NDH government.

These are your positions, and you are standing by them?

Allen/
1.No.One had wive and children killed in koncentracion camp (or not necessarily in konc. camp doesn't really matter),five would be his friends and that is enough for huge consequences.
2.Yes,I don't think he ordered that.He probbably found out about it,but to late.
3.No.
4.No,but in the eyes of Partizans who saw horrors done by Ustaše,he was and I can't blame them for that.
5.If defeated forces done the same thing earlier to the victorios forces when the future victorius were defendless than yes you can expect that to happen.I mean they got what they were looking for.
6.There were killings of the Croatians,but not mass killings(I didn't say the right thing before,cause of my bad english).After war,It was killings of Ustaša war criminals,not innocent people.
7.Yes.
8.No.There were Croats in Partizan units,as you said somethime before,a lot of them.
After all Tito didn't say for himself that he was anti-fashist,it was recognised and respected by whole world,and those who are against him(anti-fashist) should ask themselfs what are they supporting.

Regards.
Last edited by Kingdom of Montenegro on 22 Jul 2004, 13:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Kingdom of Montenegro
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#38

Post by Kingdom of Montenegro » 18 Jun 2004, 22:48

Marcus Wendel wrote:Kingdom of Montenegro,

Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.

/Marcus
I really didn't mean to be offensive and I apologize if I offended anybody.It is just my opinion on this matter and I evidentially think diferent than you do.
Regards.

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Musashi
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#39

Post by Musashi » 18 Jun 2004, 22:51

Marcus Wendel wrote:Kingdom of Montenegro,
Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.
/Marcus
Marcus, I see you don't understand the people from the former Yugoslavia. They have own customs, which are hard to understanding by the people from the West :| :| :|

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Allen Milcic
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#40

Post by Allen Milcic » 18 Jun 2004, 22:58

Musashi wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Kingdom of Montenegro,
Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.
/Marcus
Marcus, I see you don't understand the people from the former Yugoslavia. They have own customs, which are hard to understanding by the people from the West :| :| :|
Hi Musashi:

I am from Croatia, and I do not have these 'customs' - rules of civilized behaviour should apply to everyone. Personally, I find Kingdom's views on the topic quite reprehensible.

Allen/

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Marcus
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#41

Post by Marcus » 18 Jun 2004, 23:49

Musashi wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Kingdom of Montenegro,
Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.
Marcus, I see you don't understand the people from the former Yugoslavia. They have own customs, which are hard to understanding by the people from the West
I grew up with quite a few people from Yugoslavia and some of my friends are from various parts of former Yugoslavia, none of them have such "customs", like Allen pointed out rules of civilized behaviour applies to everyone, regardless of where you happen to be born.

/Marcus

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yerbamatt
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#42

Post by yerbamatt » 19 Jun 2004, 02:19

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Musashi wrote:
Marcus Wendel wrote:Kingdom of Montenegro,
Once again you defend massmurder and frankly, I find that offensive.
Marcus, I see you don't understand the people from the former Yugoslavia. They have own customs, which are hard to understanding by the people from the West
I grew up with quite a few people from Yugoslavia and some of my friends are from various parts of former Yugoslavia, none of them have such "customs", like Allen pointed out rules of civilized behaviour applies to everyone, regardless of where you happen to be born.

/Marcus
Ask a Croat from Vukovar, A Serb from Krajina, A Bosniak from Srebrenica what they think about it. I totally agree with Musashi's opinion - deep, murderous animosities are a "way of life" and keep well and healthy there until today.

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#43

Post by Mostowka » 19 Jun 2004, 02:54

Obviously the whole Jugoslavian history is infected with nationalistic conflicts who over time have generated generations of people who follow in the wake of these national chauvinistic tendencies, this is quite understandable and I don´t blame the "Kingdom of Montenegro" of doing anything wrong here, it´s just that Europe is as we speak still getting through this phase, and the Balkan countries have fallen a bit behind.

One could hope that discussions about who did what, and when, for what reason can stand back in the face of reconsilliation of past mistakes. The Balkan nations need to understand this. National pride and remeberance cannot have the front seat when creating the future.

You could learn from Rwanda, eh ? :|

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yerbamatt
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#44

Post by yerbamatt » 19 Jun 2004, 03:09

Allen Milcic wrote:
yerbamatt wrote:
K.Kocjancic wrote:So, according to you, 150.000 Croats worked in Jasenovac? Interesting! :roll:
Do not bluff - I bet you know wartime Croatia was dotted with numerous concentration camps, such as:
Dakovo, Danica, Jadovno, Kozare, Krusevo, Loborgrad, Pag, Stara Gradiska and many, many more.
Add to those all Serbian villages razed to the ground and all Serbs killed, in many cases in most vicious manners by Croatian soldiers and paramilitaries.
I do not recall any anti-Croatian pogroms in prewar Yugoslavia, perpetrated by fellow Serbs.
The matter of concentration camps in the NDH has been discussed in other threads - are you claiming that because there were some extremists within the NDH that ran these camps, it is OK to slaughter anyone that is Croatian?

There were certainly Serbian villages in the NDH destroyed by the Ustase - there were also Serbian villages destroyed by Muslims or Partizans, Croatian villages destroyed by Serbs or Partizans, Muslim villages destroyed by Serbs or Partizans...NONE of these crimes are deserving of the wholesale slaughter of innocents, or even the murder of the guilty.

Certainly, there was persecution of the Croatians during pre-war Yugoslavia, and there was murder of Croatians during the war by Serbian Cetniks - all of them well documented.

Ultimately, no side was guilt free in the war, and it is time that the Croats stop being singled out and vilified solely because an extremist organization of Croats committed crimes. It is also time to recognize the positive accomplishments of the Croatian people during the war, and at the same time other nations need to take an honest look within before casting stones.

Allen/
Hey Allen,

First, as of persecution of Croatians in pre-war Yugoslavia - please, provide us with names of any concentration camps, number of razed Croatian villages and a total number of Croatians slaughtered by Serbs before April 6, 1941.

Second, could you give us a complete list of "positive accomplishments of the Croatian people during the war" - I would be more than happy to have a glance at it.

And third - if Croats, as you're saying, were "singled out and vilified", they can mostly blame themselves for it. Strangely, it was Croatia only, which got awarded with independence in that area during the war, apparently she fully deserved it. Get yourself a copy of "Kaputt" by Curzio Malaparte and read its Croatian chapter - you will get to know, how zealots all over their NDH wanted to please and earn favours from their "poglavnik" and his German masters.

Besides, you may ask Simon Wiesenthal alone: http://www.wiesenthal.com , how Croatians dealt with dark sides of their newest history - I guess you won't be impressed at all.

Time to repent, not to force others to do that - better late than never.

Regards...

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#45

Post by David Thompson » 19 Jun 2004, 08:08

Yerbamatt -- We don't permit national insults here such as:
could you give us a complete list of "positive accomplishments of the Croatian people during the war" - I would be more than happy to have a glance at it.

and
if Croats, as you're saying, were "singled out and vilified", they can mostly blame themselves for it.
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