strafing civilians

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panzertruppe2001
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strafing civilians

#1

Post by panzertruppe2001 » 23 Jun 2004, 20:35

Pierre Miquel in his "Second World War" tolds that the Luftwaffe strafed (excuse me if the verb "strafe" is conjugated in a correct way) Belgian and French refugees.

Is this true or was Allied propaganda? Which Luftwaffe unit did this crime commit? Was the Geschwader commander was considered a war criminal and judged?

Thanks

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Lady From Hell
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Re: strafing civilians

#2

Post by Lady From Hell » 24 Jun 2004, 19:39

[quote="panzertruppe2001"]Pierre Miquel in his "Second World War" tolds that the Luftwaffe strafed (excuse me if the verb "strafe" is conjugated in a correct way) Belgian and French refugees.

Is this true or was Allied propaganda? Which Luftwaffe unit did this crime commit? Was the Geschwader commander was considered a war criminal and judged?

Hi : :D

U ask >>>Is this true or was Allied propaganda?<<.

No it wasent they were great @ straffing at Low level & coming in with the Sun so as u could not realy see them . Killng Refugees wht considere a sort of war time sport as they could nt retaliate etc.


"Lady From Hell" 8)

[/b]


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Andy H
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#3

Post by Andy H » 25 Jun 2004, 04:29

Lady from Hell:
Can you please use or attempt to use proper English rather than 'text' spelling when posting.

Thank You

Andy H

fknorr
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Re: strafing civilians

#4

Post by fknorr » 25 Jun 2004, 15:34

Lady From Hell wrote:No it wasent they were great @ straffing at Low level & coming in with the Sun so as u could not realy see them . Killng Refugees wht considere a sort of war time sport as they could nt retaliate etc.
Let's not forget that there were more planes in the skies than the Luftwaffe and that there are an equal number of references (if you cared to look) of allied planes strafing German civilians.

I believe Hermann Knell in "To Destroy a City" states that (and he lived through this, not a post-war historian) after the Allied heavy and then medium bombers finished w/Wurtzburg (a totally undefended city & approx 6 weeks prior to the German's capitulation) the allied fighter bombers strafed civilians and civil defense workers trying to dig out survivors.

Keep in mind that every train/marshalling yard, horse drawn cart, out building, etc was NOT harboring Wehrmacht soldiers and/or munitions...the allied fighters had few targets in the air so anything on the ground became fair game...including civilians

Also keep in mind that German civilian deaths are put at 1-million, with some people's figures up to 2-million. The total number of western allies civilian deaths is less than half of that. The total number of civilian deaths in England during the ENTIRE war, including the V1, V2 and the much discussed "Blitz" was approx 60,000.

Lets at least give the illusion of telling both sides of the story boys.

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#5

Post by tonyh » 28 Jun 2004, 01:37

The Luftwaffe did indeed strafe civilian columns during the Battle of France although how often is a matter of conjecture. I don't know about strafing during the fighting in Belgium. Though I would doubt it because the Belgians capitulted very quickly and there wasn't a hell of a lot of civilain refugees on the roads, in Belgium.

In the Month of war with france though, French civilians from Eastern provences moved further to the West after the German invasion and were strafed along with the retreating French Armed forces.

The reasons for which are probably manifold. Unidentified targets (its extremely difficult to tell whats what when you are zooming by at 500kmph), Civilian and armed forces mixed together moving West, to harrass and block the advancing French Armed elements and to cause general confusion (A standard tactic in wartime which all airfroces employed).

A word on strafing columns. The Jagdgeschwader as did most fighter forces rarely used such methods. The reason is simple. To strafe a column, you need to go low, this means that you've lost your height advantage and for an energy fighter like the 109 or 110 this is death is your caught from above, as the general fighting tactic of a 109 pilot was "boom n zoom". This meant that a height advantage over the enemy was ALWAYS sought and not spared lightly. Also the 109 had a liquid cooled inline engine, which meant it was VERY vunerable to ground fire, even rifle caliber, especially its radiator. There are few pilots worth their salt who would bother wasting ammo and maybe their own lives trying to shoot a few civilians on a road, therefore IMO, logic would dictate that pilots would rarely have embarked on such a silly undertaking.

Tony

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#6

Post by szopen » 01 Jul 2004, 13:46

Tonyh, weren;t you calling strafing civilian columns in Poland pure fantasy in recent discussion?

Also, telling that something didnt happened eespite there are numeroues witnesses who confirm is, only because you think it is absurd is quite humorous IMHO.
Last edited by szopen on 01 Jul 2004, 13:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: strafing civilians

#7

Post by szopen » 01 Jul 2004, 13:47

panzertruppe2001 wrote:Pierre Miquel in his "Second World War" tolds that the Luftwaffe strafed (excuse me if the verb "strafe" is conjugated in a correct way) Belgian and French refugees.

Is this true or was Allied propaganda? Which Luftwaffe unit did this crime commit? Was the Geschwader commander was considered a war criminal and judged?

Thanks
Don;t know about France, but in Poland Luftwaffe was strafing refugees. It was standard Luftwaffe practice.

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#8

Post by fknorr » 01 Jul 2004, 14:35

Could you people who state that strafing civilians was "common Luftwaffe practice" please show me (the world) documentation that states that (a) it was sanctioned by the Luftwaffe or (b) any orders mandating it as such.

I have no doubt that civilians were strafed by the Luftwaffe. I also have no doubt that ALL other countries civilians were strafed by whatever air force happened to be in the air at that particular time (axis or allied).

You people who state that it was common practice for Germany must also state it was common practice for all others...for all others did it.

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#9

Post by szopen » 01 Jul 2004, 14:47

fknorr wrote:Could you people who state that strafing civilians was "common Luftwaffe practice" please show me (the world) documentation that states that (a) it was sanctioned by the Luftwaffe or (b) any orders mandating it as such.

I have no doubt that civilians were strafed by the Luftwaffe. I also have no doubt that ALL other countries civilians were strafed by whatever air force happened to be in the air at that particular time (axis or allied).

You people who state that it was common practice for Germany must also state it was common practice for all others...for all others did it.
Ok, maybe not standard, but common. In Poland Luftwaffe aircrafts shooted not only to cvilinas on roads, but even to peasants on fields. Luftwaffe received free hand in shooting to any targets in Poland. If you can provide any data about e.g. British aircrafts shooting from low alitutode to German workers on fields, please provde it. Otherwise, do not put equations between bandits in Luftwaffe and others.

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Re: strafing civilians

#10

Post by szopen » 01 Jul 2004, 14:50

fknorr wrote: Also keep in mind that German civilian deaths are put at 1-million, with some people's figures up to 2-million. The total number of western allies civilian deaths is less than half of that. The total number of civilian deaths in England during the ENTIRE war, including the V1, V2 and the much discussed "Blitz" was approx 60,000.

Lets at least give the illusion of telling both sides of the story boys.
Fknorr, are you implying that civilians losses of eastern allies (5 million of Polish civilians alone) should be not counted? Why you compared only western allies (where occupation was milder and Wehrmacht and Luftwaafe behaved in far more civlised way) and civlian losses of Germany (which were not only caused by western allies, but also by Soviets etc), and ignored civlians from 1939 Poland shot on roads and bombed in defenseless cities?

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#11

Post by tonyh » 01 Jul 2004, 16:26

szopen wrote:Tonyh, weren;t you calling strafing civilian columns in Poland pure fantasy in recent discussion?

Also, telling that something didnt happened eespite there are numeroues witnesses who confirm is, only because you think it is absurd is quite humorous IMHO.
No. I was asking for proof. Hearsay stories of "bombers shooting civilians" doesn't qualify.

Tony

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#12

Post by Enkpitt » 02 Jul 2004, 00:16

szopen wrote:Ok, maybe not standard, but common. In Poland Luftwaffe aircrafts shooted not only to cvilinas on roads, but even to peasants on fields. Luftwaffe received free hand in shooting to any targets in Poland
Show us the proof.
Last edited by Enkpitt on 02 Jul 2004, 04:17, edited 1 time in total.

fknorr
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Re: strafing civilians

#13

Post by fknorr » 02 Jul 2004, 03:15

szopen wrote:Fknorr, are you implying that civilians losses of eastern allies (5 million of Polish civilians alone) should be not counted?
Are you implying that 5 million Polish civilians were killed by Germans and/or german air power? Allied bombing and/or the Russian's didn't cause any of those civilian deaths?

I believe it is quite convenient to lay them all at the feet of the Germans.

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Re: strafing civilians

#14

Post by szopen » 02 Jul 2004, 08:38

fknorr wrote:
szopen wrote:Fknorr, are you implying that civilians losses of eastern allies (5 million of Polish civilians alone) should be not counted?
Are you implying that 5 million Polish civilians were killed by Germans and/or german air power? Allied bombing and/or the Russian's didn't cause any of those civilian deaths?
Russians and other allies cuold be responsible for few hundreds thousand of deaths , some would be victims of war conditions. Majority of others (including 2-3 million Polish Jews) were direct victims of Nazi regime.

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#15

Post by szopen » 02 Jul 2004, 08:56

tonyh wrote:
szopen wrote:Tonyh, weren;t you calling strafing civilian columns in Poland pure fantasy in recent discussion?

Also, telling that something didnt happened eespite there are numeroues witnesses who confirm is, only because you think it is absurd is quite humorous IMHO.
No. I was asking for proof. Hearsay stories of "bombers shooting civilians" doesn't qualify.

Tony
You also ignored Anders memories, testimonies by American ambassador given by others etc.

You (or someone else on the forum, can't remember) also said that google links are irrevelant. I am not historian; i could post exceprts from history school books but of course it would be silly;i have a lot of books which mention it, without giving more details (i have mostly general history books). I've already told you that this is like asking average Japanese about bombing of Hiroshima. You answered that bombing of Hiroshima is well known, but so is Luftwaffe practices in Poland. Every family told stories about being strafed by Luftwaffe planes; every book mentions it (yup, i could quote few books which mentions tat Luftwaffe strafed civilians, but without details, that's why i am omitting them); you oculd see it in every movie. It's just common knowledge in Poland.

I know that Luftwaffe was strafing civilians and refugees during campaign in Russia: it is supposedly described in William Craig's book "Enemy at the Gates".

You also refuted that quote (footnotes to Polish edition of German book) on basis, that first edition of German book had multiple errors:
szopen wrote:I was not able to find in my library nothing better than this:

"Germans about crimes of Wehrmacht" Polish edition by Bellona, Warsaw 1997, translation and footnotes by Barbara and Daniel Lulinski

Title of German original: "Gehorsam bis zum Mord? Der verschwiegene Krieg der deutschen Wehrmacht - Fakten, Analysen, Debatte".

ISBN 83-11-08722-9

My quotes are from footnotes. All CAPSLOCKS are mine:
Footnote on page 21:
"Pilotes of Luftwaffe received orders to attack in concentric way defenseless cities on the way of Wehrmacht [..] they received free hand in shooting to any targets (there are known accidents of shotting to cows and peasants on the fields!!). In case of Warsaw [..] HITLER ORDERED MAXIMAL DESTRUCTION OF THE POLISH CAPITOL as symbol of its national [in Polish: narodowy and pasntwowy, in English i believe both are translating as national] existence. That's why not only urban districts, but also Theatre the Great and Royal Casle were bombed. General FRANZ HALDER, chief of HQ of Land forces mentions several times in his "War Diary" about PERSONAL INTERVENTIONS OF HITLER WHO DEMANDED INTENSIFICATION OF ACTIONS TO MADE MAXIMAL DESTRUCTION IN WARSAW.
supplement to Polish edition, on the end of book (by Polish translators), page 184
[...] [Hitler's] ordered for Luftwaffe on the very begin of the campaign were directed to complete destruction cultural buildings and her's population [...]
Soo... do orders by Hitler count?

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