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Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Victor´s Justice?
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Post by Victor´s Justice? » 06 Aug 2002 16:21

Scott Smith wrote:Oh, come on now, you guys--everybody knows that "Jews invented Hollywood," not that there is anything wrong with that. In fact, it would be surprising if they did not promote their interests, as the moguls and billionaires like Spielberg, Bronfman, et al see them.
:)


Make that "Zionists invented Hollywood"...like SKG, aka Spielberg, Katzenberg, Geffen (married to that sissy Hawaiian actor); Warner Bros. et al...

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 06 Aug 2002 16:45

What I find funny is when the subject of Japanese war crimes comes up, some American starts bleating about how they, the Japs, should apologise to the world etc etc. But theres never any mention of an apology from other nations to atone for the sins, wheres the apology from America for knocking off a continent of Indians? or for their ten year rape'n'pilage tour of Vietnam? or from Soviet Russia whose crimes are manifold, or from China whose Mao exterminated more than Russia and Germany combined, or from Britain, who seem to be always getting off the hook for their crimes against humanity. Their Empire wasn't built from Lego, you know, it was built from the blood of the countries they occupied.

This crap of trying to get the defeated nations of WWII to constantly apologise is just another bludgeon to use against those countries and to shed another false light upon the accuser.

Tony

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Post by Caldric » 06 Aug 2002 17:30

I have not seen any wanting the Japanese to apologize, I have seen hordes demanding the US apologize. It would be shallow at best anyway. And how does a nation apologize?

Also if anyone should be blamed for wiping out a continent of Indian's it should rest on European shoulders. There were only 200,000 or so Indian's left in 1780, down from millions. :|

Not that wiping out another few thousand is any good either. But the United States had a minor role in the death of all the Native's.
Last edited by Caldric on 07 Aug 2002 00:55, edited 1 time in total.

Lobscouse
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Japenese atonement, or lack thereof.

Post by Lobscouse » 07 Aug 2002 00:45

I often wonder how many Yakusuni Shrines would have been erected, if Nanking had been a Jewish ghetto. Wiesenthal could have expanded his hunting activities into Asia, and Bronfman, d'Amato et al would be holding the Nipponese to ransom.

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Far East

Post by Lobscouse » 07 Aug 2002 04:21

tony
I am usually in agreement with most of what you have to post. Your bit about "the ten year rape and pillage" of Viet Nam, by the US, is just going overboard. You could describe it in many ways, but words like rape and pillage are untrue. Viet Nam suffered war for far longer than ten years, and the effects are still felt today, but over 50,000 GIs died there and their families also suffered.

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Post by tonyh » 07 Aug 2002 11:45

>>I have not seen any wanting the Japanese to apologize<<

What, you've never heard of a anyone screaming for the Japs to say sorry for WWII crimes? or that they absolutely must bash their schoolchildren over the head with what the grandfathers are supposed to have done? Well, I certainly have. And I hear it in nearly every circumstance that the "Japanese warcrimes" conversation comes up.

>>Also if anyone should be blamed for wiping out a continent of Indian's it should rest on European shoulders. There were only 200,000 or so Indian's left in 1780, down from millions.<<

Well, perhaps. But thats like blaming the fathers of German soldiers of WWII for their sons crimes. Its as absurd as asking the Japanese generation of today to aploogise for something that happened 60 odd years ago. Also, there were 250.000 people of native origin on the US continent in 1900. Whereas before the first white settlers there was over 30.000.000 native peoples of all types on the entire continent of North and South, if I remember the statistic correctly.

Tony

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 07 Aug 2002 11:56

>>tony
I am usually in agreement with most of what you have to post. Your bit about "the ten year rape and pillage" of Viet Nam, by the US, is just going overboard. You could describe it in many ways, but words like rape and pillage are untrue. Viet Nam suffered war for far longer than ten years, and the effects are still felt today, but over 50,000 GIs died there and their families also suffered.<<

Well, perhaps I am using the hyperbole that usually levelled at the Germans and Japanese in WWII. Ten year rape'n'pilage is indeed wrong to say, but perhaps people will understand that thats what German and Japanese people have had to listen to for 60 yrs. Although, there were, I'm sure, many instances of rape during the US actions in Vietnam. And much of the infrastructure of the villages in South Vietnam were destroyed during US "sweep and clear" (or seek and destroy) missions and I won't even begin to start about the legacy of "Agent Orange". I certianly do not mean to damn all the US men who fought in Vietnam the majority of which did what they had to do, but armies are a microcosm of human society and violence exists in that society and war, all wars, turn men to actions that they would not normally do. As one Vietnam vet said "morallity is a luxury that belongs to civilians in peacetime". 50.000 US servicemen may have died in South Vietnam, but nobody suffered as much as the Vietnamese themselves in that conflict.

Tony

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David E M
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Post by David E M » 07 Aug 2002 12:20

Caldric, Not too long ago there was a deputation of Korean 'Comfort Women' went to Japan to demand recompense. These 'Comfort Women' were women who were kidnapped by the Japanese and put into Army brothels. Most of them had no choice, they had to follow the Army wherever it went.
I remember one of them saying ' I don't want money, at my age what would I do with money?. What I want is the Japanese Government to acknowledge that this happened.'.
They never did.
This, I think, is what the root of the problem is. The Chinese, Koreans and other Asians see the Japanese school kids told great distortions of what went on in WW2.
Its a matter of 'Face' or a bit more than that.
Its a matter of Human dignity.
I don't believe anyone should hate the Japanese today for what happend so many years ago, most of them were not alive.
There is a saying ' If you do not remember history - you are doombed to repeat it'.
On a positive note, I know a village in the Philippines that was helped by the Japanese, they gave them rice when everone was starving, in return the villigers helped them when they retreated to the mountains. Traitors? or just human?.
I cannot condemn every Japanese, but I cannot accept that the 'Rape of Nanking' was a justifiable military action.
They really do have to clean up their act.
cheers.

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 07 Aug 2002 15:06

>>They really do have to clean up their act.<<

Hmmmmmmmmm......how many Aborigonies are left in Austrailia David? :?

Tony

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Scott Smith
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The Wild, Wild West...

Post by Scott Smith » 07 Aug 2002 19:15

tonyh wrote:
Caldric wrote:Also if anyone should be blamed for wiping out a continent of Indian's it should rest on European shoulders. There were only 200,000 or so Indian's left in 1780, down from millions.

Well, perhaps. But thats like blaming the fathers of German soldiers of WWII for their sons crimes. Its as absurd as asking the Japanese generation of today to aploogise for something that happened 60 odd years ago. Also, there were 250.000 people of native origin on the US continent in 1900. Whereas before the first white settlers there was over 30.000.000 native peoples of all types on the entire continent of North and South, if I remember the statistic correctly.

It is believed that as many as 40 million aboriginal peoples lived in North America prior to the arrival of Europeans, mostly along the Mississippi River valley, a very overpopulated figure considering primitive agricultural technology or a semi-nomadic Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle.

When Europeans showed-up they brought Old World diseases with them, and the native populations were therefore slowly decimated. This was not done through Genocide--as we are happy to believe with the Genocide theory-of-history that we are taught in school--but simply by shaking hands. They caught our diseases and we caught theirs. Europeans brought smallpox to America and went home with syphilis, both of which became very aggressive in their new environments.

The primary reason that the American people (not necessarily the Yankee merchants and the southern plantation aristocracy) were motivated to fight King George III in 1776 was because the crown was attempting to enforce the Treaty of Paris (1763) which preserved Indian lands by limiting American migration west of Appalachia. We defeated the Crown and devised a Land Ordinance in 1785 which surveyed each Township and reserved Section 16 for a school. We Americans call this coast-to-coast Lebensraum our "Manifest Destiny," and no force in the universe could have stopped it--considering the demographic emptiness of the North American continent at the time.

This does not mean that atrocities were not committed against the Native Americans. They were. But mostly by the settlers and not by government initiative which supported the settlement. By the time of the Apache wars in Arizona at the end of the last century, the U.S. Army was *preventing* the extermination of the Indians--which does not mean that they were not rounded-up and held under concentration camp conditions and the Indian combatants themselves not held indeterminately as political prisoners-of-war.

I toured the location of the recent forest fires and I also visited Fort Apache below...
:)

Image

Fort Apache, AZ was the last cavalry outpost of the U.S. Army, disbanded in 1922, with an Indian boarding school (below) established in 1923. The Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 gives Native Americans U.S. national citizenship. They number 2,475,956 or 0.9% of the U.S. population from the 2000 census.

Image

Officer's quarters at Fort Apache.

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Stockade at Fort Apache. Geronimo was held inside this door.

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General Crook's cabin (circa 1871).

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Last edited by Scott Smith on 07 Aug 2002 22:06, edited 2 times in total.

Ovidius
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Re: The Wild, Wild West...

Post by Ovidius » 07 Aug 2002 19:35

Scott Smith wrote:When Europeans showed-up they brought Old World diseases with them, and the native populations were therefore slowly decimated. This was not done through Genocide--as we are happy to believe with the Genocide theory-of-history that we are taught in school--but simply by shaking hands. They caught our diseases and we caught theirs. Europeans brought smallpox to America and went home with syphilus, both of which became very aggressive in their new environments.


Quite wrong. Syphilis had existed in Europe in Roman times, fact proved by Roman skeletons with bone damage specific to this horrible disease. The scientists suppose the source of the disease had been North Africa, and that it re-appeared after 15th century due to more often contacts with North African peoples via the Mediterranean wars.

~Ovidius

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Scott Smith
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Re: The Wild, Wild West...

Post by Scott Smith » 07 Aug 2002 19:48

Ovidius wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:When Europeans showed-up they brought Old World diseases with them, and the native populations were therefore slowly decimated. This was not done through Genocide--as we are happy to believe with the Genocide theory-of-history that we are taught in school--but simply by shaking hands. They caught our diseases and we caught theirs. Europeans brought smallpox to America and went home with syphilis, both of which became very aggressive in their new environments.

Quite wrong. Syphilis had existed in Europe in Roman times, fact proved by Roman skeletons with bone damage specific to this horrible disease. The scientists suppose the source of the disease had been North Africa, and that it re-appeared after 15th century due to more often contacts with North African peoples via the Mediterranean wars.

Ovidius, you may be right but it was a less-serious strain until introduced to Europe by New World explorers, which worked both ways when syphilis was reintroduced back to America. I'm not an expert but I believe that who-introduced-what-to-whom is a hotly-contested area of research right now.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 07 Aug 2002 21:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Paul Timms
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??

Post by Paul Timms » 07 Aug 2002 20:58

Scott,
Surely you can't catch syphilis by shaking hands.(phnarr,phnarr).

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Scott Smith
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Re: ??

Post by Scott Smith » 07 Aug 2002 21:00

Paul Timms wrote:Scott,
Surely you can't catch syphilis by shaking hands.(phnarr,phnarr).

Good one! I meant smallpox. Syphilis takes too long to kill.
:)

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Paul Timms
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Smallpox

Post by Paul Timms » 07 Aug 2002 21:20

Local legend here has it that Witney(my corner of W.Oxfordshire) blankets were deliberatley contaminated with smallpox and given to the Indians. Anyone know if there is any truth in this ? (sorry Marcus may be getting a little off topic).

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