Kampfgruppe Peiper's war crimes in Ardennes (16.12. 1944)

Lipton · Post by **Lipton** » 17 Jul 2004 21:11

I did some searching and found many topics about Malmedy but no topic about other war crimes committed on American P.O.W. by Kampfgruppe Peiper in Ardennes:

Honsfeld
19 American soldiers from 349. Regiment of 99. Infantry Division are captured and murdered

Bullingen
An unknown number of American P.O.W. is murdered. Before it, they are ordered to refuel the German tanks

Lingneuville
8 American soldiers are murdered after being taken to the captivity

Baugnes
At least 100 American P.O.W. are machine-gunned. 20 of their comrades are able to escape

Bagatelle (or still Baugnes?)
12 Americans are killed while emerging from a building that was burnt by the Germans

Source:
John Macdonald: Great Battles of World War II

What happened in Cheneux? According to the book SS-Leibstandarte at least 10 paratroopers from 82nd Airborne Division were killed in hand-to-hand combat with one company from 2. Panzer Grenadier Regiment SS, but I’m sure that I somewhere read that they were beaten to death.

Patrice · Post by **Patrice** » 17 Jul 2004 22:42

Hello.
During the fight for Cheneux the 20 and 21 December ,two companies(B/C) of the 504° Infantry of the 82°Airborne lost 23 killeds,200 wondeds,including all the officers of the B Company.
The B Company was reduced at 18 men and the C Company at 38 men and 3 officers.these losts are due to hand to hand combat and the German artillery.the Germans lost Cheneux ,14 Flak vehicles,one battery of 105mm,6 half-tracks,some truck and other vehicles and a great number of killed.
A fine book on the Battle of the Bulge is "A Time for Trumpets from Charles B. MacDonald" the informations of this post are mainly from this book,included in this book all the war crimes on GIs and on civilians
About the Malmemy massacre in fact at Baugnez a good book" Massacre a Malmedy" of Gerd j.Gust Cuppens Editions Heimdal.
Patrice

Lipton · Post by **Lipton** » 18 Jul 2004 12:14

Patrice, thank you very much for this informative post, I will look for the book.
Do you know if the paratroopers in Cheneux were killed in bayonet duels or captured and murdered?

Patrice · Post by **Patrice** » 18 Jul 2004 20:16

Hello Lipton.
No sorry, untill now I dont have more Informations on Cheneux,maybee later.
Patrice

Davy · Post by **Davy** » 30 Jan 2006 13:50

Hi,

any info about the killing of POW in La Gleize on 18, 20 and 21 december 1944
of the killing of civilians at Stavelot on 18 december 1944?

BTW the murdered americans at Honsfeld belonged to the 394th Rgt - 99th Inf.Div. not to the 349th Rgt.

and the killed americans of Ligneuville belonged to 27th Inf.Btl and 14th Tank Btl. - 9th Arm.Div.
they where killed by SS-Hauptscharführer Paul Ochmann.

Greatings, Davy.

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 03 Dec 2006 10:29

Davy wrote:Hi,

any info about the killing of POW in La Gleize on 18, 20 and 21 december 1944
of the killing of civilians at Stavelot on 18 december 1944?

On December 18, the day after the massacre at Malmédy, the same SS unit of Kampfgruppe Peiper, systematically executed 130 Belgian civilians in the village of Stavelot. Charged with sheltering American soldiers, 67 men, 47 women and 23 children were brutally executed.

Davy · Post by **Davy** » 21 Feb 2007 20:20

Hi,

the murders in Stavelot was not for Kampfgruppe Peiper, but from Schnelle gruppe Knittel,
a unit of the SS.AA.1

Davy.

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 21 Feb 2007 23:45

Davy, you mix up December 18 and 19.

"Kurt Steiner", 130 on December 18 in Stavelot alone by the same unit from Kampfgruppe Peiper? I am very curious how you will back up that claim with sources.

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 22 Feb 2007 09:37

see , for instance

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html
http://www.politikforen.de/showthread.p ... e=11&pp=10
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 64&start=0 (however, the number of civilians killed cited there is 99)
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23296

As far as I know, Peiper has always been related to this massacre. IIRC, among the crimes that were charged on Peiper during his trial (16. Mai bis 16. Juli 1946), Stavelot was included among them.

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 22 Feb 2007 15:56

I see. Just some remarks on the internet. So no factual proof.

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 22 Feb 2007 22:34

Well, if some remarks here in this forum doesn't mean anything to you, I don't see the point of you being here.

Anyway, IIRC, you can search for info in "Battle of the Bulge - Then and now" by Jean Paul Pallud.

Finally, let me remind you that Peiper was judged and sentenced for this crime. Is this enough for you? Oh, let me guess.... history is written by the victorious side is your answer, perhaps?

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 22 Feb 2007 22:38

Must say that I often wonder what I'm doing here. Anyway, you can't provide factual proof.

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 22 Feb 2007 22:44

So, the trial who sentenced Peiper and included Stavelot among the crimes doesn't mean a thing, to you. Is not "factual" enough, perhaps?

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 22 Feb 2007 22:57

One of your links says that Peiper was conficted for:

(a) 86 captured American soldiers on the road from Baugnez , Belgium on 17 Dec 1944
(b) 50 captured American soldiers around Bullingen 17 Dec 1944
(c) 19 other American POWs at Honnsfeld, Belgium 17 Dec 1944
(d) 93 civilians at Stavelot, Belgium 18 Dec 1944
(e) 31 captured American soldiers at Cheneux, Belgium 18 Dec 1944
(f) 8 other American POWs at Stavelot 19 Dec 1944
(g) 44 American POWs at Stoumont on 19 Dec 1944
(h) 5 Belgian civilians around Wanne, Belgium 20 Dec 1944
(i) over 100 American POWs at La Gleize, Belgium on 18 Dec, 21 Dec and 22 Dec 1944

Take out point "d" (which only mentions 93 instead of 130) and there was still plenty left to convict him. But you're trying to steer away from my question. Do you have factual proof that KG Peiper killed 130 people in Stavelot on December 18, 1944?

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 23 Feb 2007 10:43

When I quoted that link, I mentioned the difference between the common accepted number of civilians and the one from those mentioned in that link. I don't understand your surprised, unless you skipped my note.

About factual proofs

After the end of World War II, Peiper and other members of the Waffen-SS were tried for war crimes in the Malmedy massacre trial. Among those crimes the massacre at Stavelot was included. Peiper was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging, as were many of his men.

However, the sentences created a big turmoil because the accused were found guilty on the ground of "illegal and fraudulently procured confessions" and were subjects of a mock trial. This turmoil led to an investigation of the US Senate which concluded that improper pre-trial procedures (including mock trial, but not torture as sometime stated) had harmed the process and, although in some cases there was little or no doubt that the accused were indeed guilty of the massacre, the death sentences could hardly be applied.

Now, my question, 'Harro'. Have you anything that proves that Peiper had nothing to do with the Stavelot massacre? Perhaps the US Senate would be highly interested in your proofs.