Kampfgruppe Peiper's war crimes in Ardennes (16.12. 1944)

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 23 Feb 2007 16:42

Harro wrote:Knittel "and his boys" - when not taking cover for Allied airraids - were in constant battle with the 30th US Inf.Div. So why your conclusion that they were "quite busy to kill unarmed civilians"? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

I was answering Davy's statement

the murders in Stavelot was not for Kampfgruppe Peiper, but from Schnelle gruppe Knittel, a unit of the SS.AA.1

Harro wrote:This topic is about 130 civilians in Stavelot. Not about the Malmédy massacre or Hitler in the KZ Lager.

I was answering this post by Tony

tonyh wrote:He never admitted guilt for any of the charges and in fact was nowhere near Malmedy when the shootings occured.

We can say the following:

We know that between 93 and 130 Belgian civilians were shot on December, 18, 1944.

We know that neither Knittel nor Hansen were in situation to do it.

We know that Peiper was.

We know that among the charges against him, Stavelot was there.

So... Tell me Harro, are you suggesting that the Stavelot massacre did not took place?

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 23 Feb 2007 16:46

Kurt_Steiner wrote:Ok, he was not near Malmedy. Who was near?

Neither KG Knittel nor KG Hansen were there with time or disponibility to do those crimes. Elements of KG Peiper had been there...

So, Peiper wasn't guilty because he wasn't there. Hitler was not in the KZs, but no one says that he was not guilty. Peiper gave an order, his men fulfilled it.

You're wrong. There was no "order".

Malmedy was more an unfortunate event than pre-ordered killing. The facts of the incident are recounted in Gordon Williamson's book "The SS: Hitler's instrument of terror" and so far offers the best account as far as I'm concerned.

Nore than likely the US POWs captured at Malmendy tried to make a break for it, or the Germans guarding them believed it to be so and they were fired upon, first by Georgy Phelps. Others opened fire afterwards. The crime of Malmedy, was the coups de gras delivered to the wounded.

If an order was given to take no prisoners, then the hundeds of prisoners taken during the Ardennes offensive wouldn't have survived.

If an order was issued, it wasn't carried out very well.

Tony[/quote]

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 23 Feb 2007 16:48

Peiper was in the KZ Lager, he even witnessed the gassings...

This is going to need some serious backing up.

Tony

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 23 Feb 2007 16:50

So, if there was a general order, why the other KGs did not followd it?

Why are the massacres only found in Peiper's path? Perhaps had something to do with his commander? Because the men were the same ones who took some hundreds of US prisoners at Baugnez.

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 17:08

Kurt_Steiner wrote:Now, my question, 'Harro'. Have you anything that proves that Peiper had nothing to do with the Stavelot massacre?

Harro wrote:Why would I try to provide evidence that Peiper "had nothing to do with the Stavelot massacre"? I never made such claims. [...]Off course KG Peiper was responsible for civilian victims in Stavelot that day. But the question is: how many.

Kurt_Steiner wrote:You haven't proved that those crimes didn't took place

Harro wrote:Again: I didn't prove that those crimes didn't take place simply because I'm NOT denying that they took place. Tell me, why should I proof that?

Kurt_Steiner wrote:So... Tell me Harro, are you suggesting that the Stavelot massacre did not took place?

What do you think?

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 17:13

Kurt_Steiner wrote:We know that between 93 and 130 Belgian civilians were shot on December, 18, 1944.

No, we don't. We don't know the number of victims. Could be anywere between say 0 and 3,000. What we need is factual proof.

Kurt_Steiner · Post by **Kurt_Steiner** » 23 Feb 2007 17:14

You say: we don't know how many were killed. You seem to suggest that as we don't know it, it might have not happened. We know that the numbers go from 90 to 130. We know that. It's in not just me who say that this in this forum.

Perhaps it's a big conspiracy, Harro...

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 17:20

tonyh wrote:
Peiper was in the KZ Lager, he even witnessed the gassings...
This is going to need some serious backing up.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=805752

jeweste wrote:You will find very good sources about Peipers point of view as I would evaluate him as an so called "Alt-Nazi" and Peipers knowledge and duty during his time with his beloved and admired Himmler at Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltung Ludwigsburg. There you will find a lot of statements given by Peiper himself. Very interesting are his statements from 1967 in the context with the Dr. Best trial. He speaks about the Ghetto of Warschau, the gasing of human beings, has always nice excuses, nice storries and not one word of regret. [...] And you will be horrified, if you read his statements about the gasing. He even looked through the window during the gasing, his description is ice cold.

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 17:29

Kurt_Steiner wrote:Now, my question, 'Harro'. Have you anything that proves that Peiper had nothing to do with the Stavelot massacre?

Harro wrote:Why would I try to provide evidence that Peiper "had nothing to do with the Stavelot massacre"? I never made such claims. [...]Off course KG Peiper was responsible for civilian victims in Stavelot that day. But the question is: how many.

Kurt_Steiner wrote:You haven't proved that those crimes didn't took place

Harro wrote:Again: I didn't prove that those crimes didn't take place simply because I'm NOT denying that they took place. Tell me, why should I proof that?

Kurt_Steiner wrote:So... Tell me Harro, are you suggesting that the Stavelot massacre did not took place?

Kurt_Steiner wrote:You seem to suggest that as we don't know it, it might have not happened.

Certainly not. What I suggest is that civilians were killed in Stavelot by member of KG Peiper and KG Knittel BUT I have yet to see your proof that there were 130 victims killed by men from Peipers unit on December 18, 1944.Most sources I've seen - including the 130 and 93 mentioned by you - are unreliable figures. To many victims of battle - cross-fire, artillery - were listed as victims of SS brutality directly after the battle by the Belgian War Crimes Commission. Understandable due to the rage of those civilians who suffered and survived. But not very useful if one wants to establish the actual number of murdered inhabitants of Stavelot. Yet these figures were used during the trial in Dachau against Peiper and the other defendants.

tonyh · Post by **tonyh** » 23 Feb 2007 17:36

Harro wrote:
tonyh wrote:
Peiper was in the KZ Lager, he even witnessed the gassings...
This is going to need some serious backing up.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=805752
jeweste wrote:You will find very good sources about Peipers point of view as I would evaluate him as an so called "Alt-Nazi" and Peipers knowledge and duty during his time with his beloved and admired Himmler at Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltung Ludwigsburg. There you will find a lot of statements given by Peiper himself. Very interesting are his statements from 1967 in the context with the Dr. Best trial. He speaks about the Ghetto of Warschau, the gasing of human beings, has always nice excuses, nice storries and not one word of regret. [...] And you will be horrified, if you read his statements about the gasing. He even looked through the window during the gasing, his description is ice cold.

I wouldn't call that serious backing up.

Tony

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 17:42

Why not? You don't believe that Jens and Danny found the original statements made by Peiper in 1967? Or do you question what Peiper wrote?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 23 Feb 2007 21:02

Let's cut the repartee and get back to sourced facts. The question isn't whether Jochen Peiper was the sort of person you'd have over to dinner with your family. The question is whether he was culpable for the killings at Stavelot.

Harro · Post by **Harro** » 23 Feb 2007 22:40

David Thompson wrote:The question is whether he was culpable for the killings at Stavelot.

And - if he was - how many civilians did his men kill in Stavelot.

giordansmith · Post by **giordansmith** » 19 Dec 2007 07:01

Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove that the massacres at Stavelot actually took place before trying to assign responsibility for them?

I have a big problem with this alleged massacre, not least because the claim is that 93/100 civilians were murdered for no reason at all. Why would the Germans have killed civilians for no reason? Wouldn't they have been better off concentrating their efforts on fighting the enemy or hunting down partisans and saboteurs?

Unless it can be proven that these killings actually took place, I'm tempted to dismiss them as the product of the imagination of Capt. Melvin Handville, the Detachment Commander of the US Army, 30th Infantry Division Counter Intelligence Corps.

Can anyone provide names for the victims, photos of their corpses, locations where they are buried today and affidavits from relatives clarifying the circumstances in which they went missing?

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 19 Dec 2007 07:53

giordansmith -- In the research sections of the forum, we're looking for sourced information about historical events rather than the personal notions of individual posters. Our rules are posted for all to see at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.