Kampfgruppe Peiper's war crimes in Ardennes (16.12. 1944)

[giordansmith]

Having an informed discussion about any historical event involves the discussion of whether or not the events under discussion actually took place. For example, if you hold the position that there was never an historical Jesus, there is no point talking about why he was crucified. Stifling discussion of such matters on the pretext that it involves the injection of personal opinion into historical debate is a fairly blatant pretext for the injection of your personal opinion, which is that all atrocities blamed by Allied reporters and tribunals actually took place. Since, for example, the Allies went along with the Soviet view that the Germans were responsible for the massacre of Polish officers in the Katyn forest, we know that the Allies often lied for propaganda reasons. Sixty years later, Allied lies are as up for discussion as any other lies. Your position only endangers the viability and integrity of this forum as a place for the serious discussion of issues connected with the war. If you seek to use it as a forum for pushing Allied propaganda you should rename it accordingly. (The Allied Propaganda Forum has a nice ring about it.) However, no person with a serious interest in World War II would bother with such a forum, and I think the reason that this forum is dishonestly titled would seem to reflect that.

Quite simply, as a serious WWII researcher - as my latest three-part article on the 'last days of the Third Reich' published in NEXUS magazine proves - I don't care whether you ban me from your forum or not. Serious researchers prefer serious forums.

[David Thompson]

giordansmith -- The forum was created for the purpose of providing our readers with sourced information and informed discussion on historical issues. Most of our readers understand, appreciate and value the opportunity to find more information, which is why the forum has a large membership and many more visitors.

A small minority of posters have, from time to time, tried to use the large AHF audience to advance their various political points of view, personal notions, and/or an exaggerated sense of self-esteem. To discourage this, the forum administrators adopted a set of rules. These rules forbid provocative or disruptive behavior and require the use of sourced information in forum discussions. As a general proposition, sourced information is always preferable to a poster's unsourced notions, suppositions, oracular pronouncements or fantasies. This is the purpose underlying the sourcing rule, which applies in all research areas of the forum.

Posters who offend against these rules are typically warned, although in extreme cases they may be banished outright. After a warning or several warnings, in the sound discretion of the moderator, further missives from that poster which do not conform to the rules or advance the forum purposes are routinely deleted. Since our readers understand and appreciate the concept of assuring quality posts, the sourcing rule has been well-received, and only a very few posters have objected to providing sources when asked. For most posters, sourcing is part of being taken seriously in a discussion, so it's done as a matter of course.

As you put it yourself:

Serious researchers prefer serious forums.

[Rob - wssob2]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove that the massacres at Stavelot actually took place before trying to assign responsibility for them?

I have a big problem with this alleged massacre, not least because the claim is that 93/100 civilians were murdered for no reason at all. Why would the Germans have killed civilians for no reason? Wouldn't they have been better off concentrating their efforts on fighting the enemy or hunting down partisans and saboteurs?

Unless it can be proven that these killings actually took place, I'm tempted to dismiss them as the product of the imagination of Capt. Melvin Handville, the Detachment Commander of the US Army, 30th Infantry Division Counter Intelligence Corps.

Can anyone provide names for the victims, photos of their corpses, locations where they are buried today and affidavits from relatives clarifying the circumstances in which they went missing?

giordansmith,

Here is some information for you.

Here is a photo of a Allied war correspondent looking at some of the victims



You can read Capt John E. KENT's (1st Battalion, 117th Infantry Regiment 30th Infantry Division) account of the massacre at http://www.criba.be/index.php?option=co ... 9&Itemid=4

For a first person account of the massacre see p.264-265 The Bitter Woodsby John S.D. Eisenhower

http://books.google.com/books?id=XfAGAQ ... 65-IA15,M1

The 9-month old baby killed by W-SS troopers was named Bruno Klein-Terf. the oldest civilian killed by the SS troops was 78 year old Josephine Grosjean-Hourand.

The supposedly reasons for the W-SS shooting the civilians was a) they made too much noise b) the sheltered US troops c) they were suspected partisans or resistance supporters

Here is a photo of Reverend Francois Ernes conducting a graveside service for the victims:



There are at least two memorials of the victims in the town itself - one to 26 civilians murdered by the Germans 19 December 44
& plaque at the Town Hall to 157 civilians murdered by the Germans. You can contact the Town Clerk at http://www.stavelot.be/ to verify this information.

A list of the murdered civilians from Stavelot was part of the trial documents submitted for United States vs. Valentin, et al.

You don't seem very good at serious research, given your ignorant dismissal of a massacre when documentation on it is readily available on the net.

[Penn44]

Quite simply, as a serious WWII researcher - as my latest three-part article on the 'last days of the Third Reich' published in NEXUS magazine proves - I don't care whether you ban me from your forum or not. Serious researchers prefer serious forums.

From Nexus magazine's own site:

NEXUS is an international bi-monthly alternative news magazine, covering the fields of: Health Alternatives; Suppressed Science; Earth's Ancient Past; UFOs & the Unexplained; and Government Cover-Ups.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/

Indeed, this magazine is a serious magazine for the serious researcher. For example, it has an article by an Italian fellow who claims cancer is caused by a fungus, but can be treated by an antifungal agent that can't be patented.

Here are some other great articles from this serious magazine:
- "Healing with Urine Therapy."
- "The Alien Autopsy Film: Facts vs. Armchair Research
- "Urine Therapy: Your Own Perfect Medicine."
- "MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES: Proof the Cold War was a Hoax?"

Will giordansmith's seriously researched article on the Third Reich be next to an article on UFOs and crop circles?

Some people need to forego the urine therapy and take their lithium.

Penn44

.

[David Thompson]

Let's get back on topic.

[PF]

Ligneuville Massacre
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16833954@N00/506428953/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16833954@N00/506479347/

[Gun-EUCMH]

I did some searching and found many topics about Malmedy but no topic about other war crimes committed on American P.O.W. by Kampfgruppe Peiper in Ardennes:

Honsfeld
19 American soldiers from 349. Regiment of 99. Infantry Division are captured and murdered

The soldiers murdered in Honsfeld were members of the 620th Tank destroyer Battalion not the 99th Infantry Division

Bullingen
An unknown number of American P.O.W. is murdered. Before it, they are ordered to refuel the German tanks

(extract eucmh.com)
Shortly before the 3.SS-Panzer-Company arrived at the Army small airfield near Büllingen on Dec 17, six or eight unarmed surrendered American prisoners of war were seen walking along the road toward the rear of the Kampfgruppe. Between the airfield and Büllingen the crew of a half-track belonging to the 3.SS-Panzer-Company fired into two separate groups, each consisting of 5 to 8 unarmed and surrendered American prisoners of war. Other groups were shot by other 3.SS-Panzer-Company men, in the Büllingen vicinity. An American PW, a flight officer was shot to death near Büllingen after he had been interrogated by a man called Preus, commander of the 10.SS-Panzer-Company. In Büllingen, the commander of the 1.SS-Panzer-Company, mentioned to 8-10 unarmed Americans, who were shot. Two American PW’s were shot by the member of the 10.SS-Panzer-Company at about 0800 on Dec 17. In Büllingen, a German soldier (Rieder) of the 9.SS-Panzer-Pioneer-Company shot a woman (Frau Anton Jousten). About a kilometer beyond Büllingen, in the direction of Thirimont, 3.SS-Panzer-Company men shot 6-8 American PWs.

Baugnes
At least 100 American P.O.W. are machine-gunned. 20 of their comrades are able to escape

(extract from eucmh.com)
Elements of Kampfgruppe Peiper arrived at the 5 roads intersection (Five Points Crossroads) in Baugnez, between Malmedy and Ligneuvile, between 1200 and 1400, Dec 17. The Crossroads is located about four kilometers southeast of Malmedy at a point where one road leads down to Malmedy, another to Hedomont, another to Waimes, and another to Ligneuville. Elements of Kampfgruppe Peiper captured personnel of the American 285-FAOB. German armored vehicles, a tank, and half-tracks were moved into position to fire upon the Americans. German armored vehicles proceeded along the road opposite this group of American prisoners. This unwanted shooting of surrendered and unarmed prisoners of war was carried out by element of various units of the Kampfgruppe Peiper.

Lingneuville
8 American soldiers are murdered after being taken to the captivity

(extract from eucmh.com)
After leaving the Crossroads the German column resumed its advance toward Ligneuville. At this place, Hotel des Ardennes, about 1600, Dec 17, 8 American prisoners of war were shot by personnel of the 9.SS-Panzer-Company.<br>


Bagatelle (or still Baugnes?)
12 Americans are killed while emerging from a building that was burnt by the Germans

I have never heard about PWs killed in Bagatelle. This sounds almost impossible because the crossroad of Bagatelle lays about 500 meters from the crossroads in Baugnez and if someone would have started to fire the 285-FAOB column would have stopped and would have fired back or at least going to cover or back to Malmedy.

Source:
John Macdonald: Great Battles of World War II

What happened in Cheneux? According to the book SS-Leibstandarte at least 10 paratroopers from 82nd Airborne Division were killed in hand-to-hand combat with one company from 2. Panzer Grenadier Regiment SS, but I’m sure that I somewhere read that they were beaten to death.

In Cheneux there were no killed prisoners because there was a butchery, man-to-man fight mostly with combat knives. Everything was red, the grass, the road, the men the deads and those still alive. (source 1 Paratrooper of the 504-PIR/82-Abn which was there and was wounded). I saw this man twice in Belgium and once in Florida. This man was crying while telling me the story.

[Gun-EUCMH]

Patrice, thank you very much for this informative post, I will look for the book.
Do you know if the paratroopers in Cheneux were killed in bayonet duels or captured and murdered?

Combat

[Harro]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to prove that the massacres at Stavelot actually took place before trying to assign responsibility for them?

I have a big problem with this alleged massacre, not least because the claim is that 93/100 civilians were murdered for no reason at all. Why would the Germans have killed civilians for no reason? Wouldn't they have been better off concentrating their efforts on fighting the enemy or hunting down partisans and saboteurs?

Unless it can be proven that these killings actually took place, I'm tempted to dismiss them as the product of the imagination of Capt. Melvin Handville, the Detachment Commander of the US Army, 30th Infantry Division Counter Intelligence Corps.

Can anyone provide names for the victims, photos of their corpses, locations where they are buried today and affidavits from relatives clarifying the circumstances in which they went missing?

giordansmith,

Here is some information for you.

Here is a photo of a Allied war correspondent looking at some of the victims



You can read Capt John E. KENT's (1st Battalion, 117th Infantry Regiment 30th Infantry Division) account of the massacre at http://www.criba.be/index.php?option=co ... 9&Itemid=4

For a first person account of the massacre see p.264-265 The Bitter Woodsby John S.D. Eisenhower

http://books.google.com/books?id=XfAGAQ ... 65-IA15,M1

The 9-month old baby killed by W-SS troopers was named Bruno Klein-Terf. the oldest civilian killed by the SS troops was 78 year old Josephine Grosjean-Hourand.

The supposedly reasons for the W-SS shooting the civilians was a) they made too much noise b) the sheltered US troops c) they were suspected partisans or resistance supporters

Here is a photo of Reverend Francois Ernes conducting a graveside service for the victims:



There are at least two memorials of the victims in the town itself - one to 26 civilians murdered by the Germans 19 December 44
& plaque at the Town Hall to 157 civilians murdered by the Germans. You can contact the Town Clerk at http://www.stavelot.be/ to verify this information.

A list of the murdered civilians from Stavelot was part of the trial documents submitted for United States vs. Valentin, et al.

You don't seem very good at serious research, given your ignorant dismissal of a massacre when documentation on it is readily available on the net.

Identity and death certificate. 8-year-old Jean Remy and his mother lived across the road and had sought shelter against the ongoing artillery fire when in the evening of the 19th of December 1944, the SS grew handgrenades into the basement of the Legaye house and forced all the civilians out. Under the pretext that they had shot one of their comrades in the back, 23 civlians - 14 children plus their mothers and grandparents - were lined up against a hedge and shot. The youngest victim was 4-year-old Pol Prince.

296708335_4723273997774370_6556078997950421184_n.jpg

[Harro]

Stavelot, the 22nd of December 1944: SS-Sturmmann Edgar Leithold to 1st Lieutenant Frank B. Craig, a member of IPW Team 93 who was attached to the 30th US Infantry Division...

“We had the task to scout Stavelot. Before we could go to the city of Stavelot, our task was to go to the left of Stavelot and determine where the American artillery position is and how strong it is. To do this, we had to go through a place. Before we got to the village we halted and the [SS-]Untersturmführer Droege gave the order to shoot everyone in the village. From there I moved with some of the men from the platoon at the rear (of the platoon). I knew that many civilians were rounded up in a shed and shot. By the time I caught up with the platoon, they had already been shot. I received an order from the Untersturmführer to set the shed alight with an Oberjaeger from the Fallschirmtruppen. I saw about 20 dead men and women in the shed"

See chapter 4.2 of the new book.

297048049_199010752461424_3106660556054956218_n.jpg

[Harro]

Summer 1944: Nicole Terf with Monique and Marie-Josée Mignon at the Petit-Spay farm. Nicole lived in Trois-Ponts and her dad, Marcel Terf, visited the farm from time to time to do some fishing in the Amblève.She vividly recalled that Monique has a dirty mouth because she had eaten blueberry tart that Nicole’s mother had baked:

“my mother took the photo without cleaning Monique’s besmirched mouth because she though it looks funny”

4-year-old Monique and 6-year-old Marie-José were murdered by the SS in their home together with their mother, 32-year-old Marie Mignon-Schomus. Their father Léon and little sister Arlette were severely wounded.
From chapter 3.2 of the new book.

290020714_192682926427540_1035980579241137445_n.jpg

[Harro]

48-year-old widower Louis Nicolay and his 13-year-old son Michel from Trois-Ponts were both murdered by the SS in the afternoon of the 19th of December 1944.

Edmond Georgin had been in his kitchen with his 42-year-old wife Irma Georgin-Boutet, his 68-year-old widowed mother Pauline Georgin-Counet and his neighbours; 48-year-old shopkeeper Louis Nicolay, his 13-year-old son Michel and his 71-year-old aunt Célestine. The previous day, the 18th of December 1944 around 12.00hrs, he had witnessed how two German soldiers, all clad in leather, had shot Mr. and Mrs. Warnier in the street after gesturing that they should come and talk to them. A terrified Georgin immediately fled into his basement. And now, the afternoon of the 19thof December at about 15.00hrs, suddenly five German soldiers entered the kitchen shouting: ‘there are bandits here’ which Georgin denied. The Germans then had a discussion in the hall when suddenly one of them returned to the kitchen and ordered Michel to leave the room. He shut the door and then Georgin heard a gunshot. Another German entered the kitchen and ordered Edmond Georgin to come with him. The 42-year-old railway guard followed him outside but when they reached the narrow path that ran from his home into his garden, he ran for it. The Germans shot at him and when Georgin jumped over a fence but tripped, he pretended to be dead. He heard a German say to his comrades ‘Kaput’. A few minutes later he jumped up and ran to the Amblève River, which runs in the back of his house and started to cross. When he reached the other side and started to climb the river bank, a sudden burst from a machine gun hit him, ripping his right arm almost completely off. He still managed to get away and reached a neighbouring house where they took care of him.

However, later that evening doctor Clesse performed an amputation, assisted by Arthur Riga, the local pharmacist.

From chapter 3.2 of the new book

[Harro]

The Prince-Demaret family lived next door to the Legaye-Crismer family in the semidetached property on the Route de Trois-Ponts. Marie Rosalie Antoinette Demaret was born in Spa on the 13th of April 1902 and moved to Stavelot when she married René Prince.

42-year-old Marie and her children, 14-year-old Yvon, 12-year-old Elisa and 4-year-old Pol, were all shot by the SS in the garden of the Legaye house on the 19th of December 1944.

SS-Obersturmführer Coblenz would maintain that his men had killed armed civilians in a firefight.

The full story is included in chapter 3.6 of the new book.

289305593_190765276619305_9061787500574597854_n.jpg

[Harro]

Haymaking on the Route de Trois-Ponts: second from the left Prosper Legaye and in the middle, with the dark coloured dress, his granddaughter Marie-Jeanne. Both were murdered by the SS in the garden of their house in the evening of the 19th of December 1944. Marie-Jeanne Legaye was murdered ten days before her ninth birthday.

Coblenzmugshot1.png

[Harro]

The list is endless. For the new book we identified 137 victims through their relatives and the investigation and trial records. We collected over 70 photos of victims and their personal stories. The warcrimes in and around Stavelot were never "alleged" - as giordansmith put is 15 years ago. They are very real and still an open wound in that small tight-knit community even 78 years later.