Lessons of Hiroshima

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Tarpon27
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#16

Post by Tarpon27 » 08 Aug 2002, 23:56

The article states:
The story of a million American lives (and many more Japanese lives) saved by the A-bombs was a complete fabrication designed to eliminate public criticism of the president's decision.
Author Kevin Black, who, according to this reprinted article from a newspaper, is a clinical psychologist who has lived in Hiroshima; the website itself is a provider of news and commentary for "progressive" issues.

Mr. Black says that critical thinking is, apparently, critical to accurately interpret the use of the atomic bombs in 1945. It would have also been somewhat helpful had Mr. Black provided some sort of proof to back up his statement quoted above.

As it is, this article makes a great many claims and assertions, none of which are presented with any evidence.

I think that in order to understand the use of atomic weapons, it is crucial to read the history of two crucial late Pacific War battles: Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and also the work on the Russian invasion of Manchuria and the US Strategic Bombing Survey for the Pacific.

It might be helpful to know that there were several estimates given on invasion of the Japanese home islands, and the ones often used to "prove" discrepancies were rejected and replaced later with far more grim estimates per potential US and Japanese casualities.

Whatever many may feel about the issue of using atomic bombs, this article is hardly helpful in providing illumination on the subject unless, of course, one's idea of "critical thinking" involves accepting in knee-jerk fashion Black's charges for which he offers zero evidence of their accuracy.

Regards,

mark

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Victor´s Justice?
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#17

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 09 Aug 2002, 00:27

Dan Weakley wrote:You idiots who have the audacity to question the use of nuclear weapons must have an axe to grind. And are clueless as to the defensive capacity of the Japanese. They had almost 5000 kamikaze aircraft hidden and ready for use. It did not take much practice to train a pilot to fly into a landing craft of bas of operations. There were three lines of defense and many Allied Generals were shocked to discover these defenses were much more elaborate than previously estimated. If the lessons of Okinawa were realized than they were applied with extreme zeal to the home island. The more experienced troops with combat experience were the third line of defense, and if this was to be penetrated then women and children were trained to use sharpened sticks and whatever handgrenades could be utilized. It was going to be a mass suicide of staggering proportions. The Japanese were clearly prepared to make this a pyrrhic victory.

So don't give me your self-righteous crap about how this was all a cover-up and we could have walked into Japan with little resistance and low casualties. You who believe such things are the same ones who believe Saddam is really a good guy at heart and radical Islam is just misunderstood by the West.

You folks are your own worst enemy....
Better refrain next time from using "idiot" or some other unpolite words in this forum; we are better educated than that.

Anyway, that´s always how North-Americans react to criticism; they do because they want to do; no need for justifications apart from their own will to keep a good Yankee balance of power on this planet.

Also, throwing an atomic bomb is the best way to ensure that your loved, brave soldiers get out without any harm; if 200,000 "others" are dead, it´s just collateral damage; not surprisingly, for sure...


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Victor´s Justice?
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#18

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 09 Aug 2002, 00:31

What justifies killing 300,000? Saving 10,000 of your own or more.
Now that´s American...then George Genius Bush and his guys wanna protect "America" from mad, bearded terrorists and the Axis of Evil...gimme a break! Such statements show only the yellow, coward nature of an Army.

scatcat
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Critical thinking

#19

Post by scatcat » 09 Aug 2002, 02:06

Lot's of heavy-handed BS here lately… 8O
Let's not be myopic, no decisions are made in a vacuum.

First of all, let's just look at the classic problem of momentum, that a weapon built is a weapon used.
A weapon is nothing more than an experiment until used in a real-live situation for the first time. The Manhattan Project had cost years and billions in time and money, by sheer momentum those weapons would be used.
Probably the only thing that could have saved the Japanese from being on the receiving end would have been an instant and unconditional surrender. :|

Then let's look at this unconditional surrender craved by the allies.
We have Casablanca where the principle were agreed upon and Potsdam where it became an official diplomatic document.
In the latter, no provisions one way or the other about the Japanese Emperor were made - but the general tone of the document made it easy to interpret as opposed to letting the Emperor stay part of official Japan. For the Japanese this was unacceptable, just as the rumors of the Morgenthau plan were unacceptable to the German public and military - those responsible for war could probably have found other grounds for rejection, but we'll never know.
While it's an easy thing to do in retrospect, I think we may safely say that knowing you would be treated with a reasonable amount of dignity and respect after surrendering makes it a viable option.
Not that the responsible should not have faced the consequences of their actions, but being indifferent to the ppl conquered will not make wars shorter.
A case can be made for that it was close to impossible to back down on these conditions, that in a public that was fiercely anti-Japanese it would have triggered a PR-shitstorm.

Then there's USSR… Their signature left out of the Potsdam documents, and them being considered a potent post-war threat.
Clearing things up in the Japanese minds would have been quite effective. This by showing them USSR wouldn't be the mediator to bail them out, but another enemy to make their situation hopeless. Thereby cutting off any hope of an alternative to surrender.
What actually happened was that the US, rather than encourage an USSR attack, effectively stalled it. :?
That there was a strong fear that USSR would gain too much power and prestige is almost a foregone conclusion. A better alternative then would be the US being able to settle matters themselves.

There is a comment on this by Leo Szilard, one of the scientists working on the Manhattan Project: “The only conclusion we can draw, is that governments acting in a crisis are guided by questions of expediency, and moral considerations are given very little weight, and that America is no different from any other nation is this respect.” :P

All this reasoning is of course by TODAY'S moral standards, therefore not really applicable on the situation.
The death toll of the A-bombs was nothing out of the ordinary at the time, just the way they were killed.
But, to say TODAY, that there were no viable alternatives is to really go out on a limb - same thing for not regretting what "had" to be done - have anyone ever seen 200000 ppl simultaneously with their own eyes, that's a lot of ppl… :roll:

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Dan W.
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#20

Post by Dan W. » 09 Aug 2002, 02:25

Now that´s American...then George Genius Bush and his guys wanna protect "America" from mad, bearded terrorists and the Axis of Evil...gimme a break! Such statements show only the yellow, coward nature of an Army.
Did you not hear me correctly when I said it the first time? Maybe I should spell it out.

I-D-I-O-T.............. ......... :mrgreen:

Caldric
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#21

Post by Caldric » 09 Aug 2002, 02:58

Now that´s American...then George Genius Bush and his guys wanna protect "America" from mad, bearded terrorists and the Axis of Evil...gimme a break! Such statements show only the yellow, coward nature of an Army.
As always you make about as much sense as a talking Jackass. Why not go support your local dictator.

Mike R
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#22

Post by Mike R » 09 Aug 2002, 04:30

Now that´s American...then George Genius Bush and his guys wanna protect "America" from mad, bearded terrorists and the Axis of Evil...gimme a break! Such statements show only the yellow, coward nature of an Army.
Please pardon me, but I am a little bit confused. First off, I must be one of George Genius Bush's guys, because I do want "America" to be protected from these so-called mad, bearded terrorists. Is that so wrong? Secondly, I would in no way call the men who are fighting those so-called mad, bearded terrorists in Afghanistan and elsewhere cowards, no matter what country they are from. Third, I would like to know what reasons the author of above quote has to entitle himself the luxury of criticizing "America's" interest of self-defense, especially in light of the terrorist attacks almost year ago.

-Mike

Senna
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#23

Post by Senna » 09 Aug 2002, 09:56

Of course I am arrogant and dumb, I mean hell I am arguing with you right?
No further comment necessary. You have revealed yourself.

Perhaps you should try to understand your own nations crimes first?
That has nothing to do with warcrimes, which have been done by your fatherland. I'm both terrified and suprised about your lack of sympathy and consciousness for the incredible count of victims. Your ancestors have killed more people in 72h, then Nazi Germany in one year.

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Marcus
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#24

Post by Marcus » 09 Aug 2002, 10:48

This is going nowhere pleasant, so I'm closing the thread.

/Marcus

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