Soviet Crimes against Minority during World War II

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 25 Jul 2004 13:55

AAA is prone to making straw-man arguments. He writes:

> Of course the "worms-eye view" does not provide infallable overview, but that is not the same as dismissing entirely the experience of the repressed.

As if anybody ever dismissed "entirely the experience of the repressed"! What should be dismissed entirely are any survivors' musings about repression statistics (be that survivors of the Nazi, Commie or any other terror).

AAA's point about the "selectively quoted" thread is a red herring. Vaillant-Couturier is no different than Antonov-Ovseenko or Solzh.

> Taking the word of such a accused secret organization (Gestapo, KGB wharever) or their parent government as to their own diminished guilt should be self evidently suspect.

And again a blatant straw-man. Nobody takes anybody's "word" for anything (though AAA, it seems, _is_ prepared to take the word of survivors about the number of Communists' victims). There are _contemporary internal NKVD/GULAG records_ made at the time. That's not simply someone's opinion, but hard evidence. If AAA wishes to show that for whatever reason NKVD/GULAG administration internally falsified its own records (which they did not expect ever to be declassified and published), diminishing the number of victims, he is invited to do so.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 25 Jul 2004 13:56

Sergey Romanov,

Please use the quote feature when quoting.

/Marcus

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AAA
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Post by AAA » 25 Jul 2004 14:39

There are _contemporary internal NKVD/GULAG records_ made at the time. That's not simply someone's opinion, but hard evidence.

That the NKVD "admits" (has inadvertently left documentary evidence) to 1,000,000 murders (Ellmans numbers from a few posts back, no?) is not hard evidence of anything, except that the NKVD committed those 1,000,000 murders. If there is hard evidence then efforts should be made to track down any surviving perps and bring them to trial asap.

What should be dismissed entirely are any survivors' musings about repression statistics (be that survivors of the Nazi, Commie or any other terror).
Ah, we see, they can be repressed, but they can't count (the better field of view from the guard towers helps apparently). You should have stated that back in your first post. QED, and goodnight.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 25 Jul 2004 17:05

Ah, we see, they can be repressed, but they can't count


Not in their capacity as witnesses. Or we should restore the "4 million" number at Auschwitz since so many survivors (many of them - Sonderkommandos) testified about it.

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 25 Jul 2004 20:29

From the article "Genocide Surveyed" by W. D. Rubinstein, The International Journal of Human Rights, Spring 2001, vol. 5, no. 1, pp. 117-120

The editorial decision taken by Charny to include massacres of various kinds which are clearly not 'genocide' in the ordinary person's understanding of the term is strongly supported by the demographic data provided by Professor R.J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii, probably the leading expert on the actual number of deaths occasioned by what he terms 'democide'. Rummel's statistics play a leading role in the Encyclopedia. He has written half a dozen books which have attempted to produce accurate data on all of the mass killings of modern history, among them Death by Government (1994), Democide: Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992), Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917 (1996), and China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900 (1991). Rummel's statistics are derived from a comprehensive range of sources; he is one historian of this subject who is invariably fair, condemning right-wing and left-wing governments alike, as well as many regimes whose crimes normally receive little attention from either the media or scholars. Yet his methodology is often somewhat questionable. His statistics for genocide are not generally derived from original research in primary sources, but by taking the most probable figure after examining the range of estimates given by previous writers on the event. This procedure is not necessarily unreasonable, but can lead to the acceptance of figures for a particular act of genocide which are distorted by inaccurate and sometimes biased sources. For instance, Rummel states (Democide, p. 18) that the Nazis murdered 220,000 homosexuals. Most historians regard the actual figure as 10,000. Rummel gives as his source (p.45) for the estimate of 220,000 the Protestant Church of Austria, which is 'a figure often cited in Gay Liberation circles'. Rummel's figure is, however, almost certainly impossible. Homosexuals were not deported to the extermination camps in Poland, but only imprisoned (often in appalling conditions) in German concentration camps such as Dachau. Nor were homosexuals outside Germany affected: there was no general roundup of homosexuals throughout Europe as there was of Jews. Rummel’s estimate of 220,000 is so improbable that it is not even cited in the Encyclopedia's article (pp.338-40) on this topic.
The Encyclopedia also contains a series of 'league tables, derived from Rummel's book Death by Government, of the deadliest killers and regimes of the twentieth century, including one (p.29) of The Twentieth Century's Bloodiest Mega Murderers'. In descending order, they turn out to be Stalin, 42.7 million victims; Mao Tse-Tung, 37.8 million; Hitler, 20.9 million; Chiang Kai-Shek, 10.2 million; Lenin, 4.0 million; Tojo, 4.0 million; Pol Pot, 2.4 million; Yahya Khan of Pakistan, 1.5 million; and Tito, 1.2 million. Several of these names are rather surprising and the figures very problematical. The notion that these killings, however appalling, should be considered in an Encyclopedia of Genocide is also anything but clear.
One of the most surprising names on this list is that of Chiang Kai-Shek, to whom no fewer than 10,214,000 'murders' are attributed. Rummel's explanation of this figure, in Death by Government (pp.123-39), is fraught with difficulties. For instance, discussing (p. 132) the flood deliberately unleashed by the Nationalists by dynamiting the dikes on the Yellow River in 1938, Rummel cites a 'joint study' carried out 'after the war [by] the Institute of Social Sciences of the Academy Sinica and the China National Rehabilitation and Relief Agency' which claimed that '893,303 people died'. Rummel apparently accepts this figure at face value. The Jewish Holocaust may well be the most closely-studied demographic catastrophe in modern history, the subject of literally thousands of studies by specialist historians. Yet the number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust is simply unknown, with estimates ranging from 4.1 million (the low figure suggested by Gerald Reitlinger in The final Solution) to 6.1 million, a variation of 49 per cent. Rummel's own figure for the number of Jewish deaths at the hands of the Nazis, 5, 291,000, is up to 800,000 less than the commonly accepted figure. Even the number of British military deaths in the First World War is subject to some doubt, being given in some sources as 702,410 and in other sources as 723,000. The 1938 Yellow River flood occurred in a virtually illiterate peasant society hallmarked by governmental near-anarchy, civil war, and foreign invasion. It therefore beggars belief that the precise figure accepted by Rummel of '893,303' deaths can be accepted as wholly accurate. In Rummel's monograph on China's Bloody Century, he apparently gives a very different figure for the number of killings allegedly carried out by the Nationalists, claiming (p.27) 2,724,000 victims in 'the Nationalist period' from 1928 until the Japanese invasion of 1937, and 2,645,000 (p.191) during the civil war period of 1945-49. The total number of 'victims of the Sino-Japanese war' of 1937-45 is estimated here by Rummel at 10,214,000, almost identical to the figure he suggests in the Encyclopedia for the total number of victims of Chiang (10,216,000), and the two figures may well simply be confused. All of this still begs the question of how accurate Rummel's statistics actually are, Chiang Kai-Shek allegedly killing twice as many Chinese as Hitler did Jews. Rummel does discuss and attempt to assess Chiang's relative responsibility for these alleged killings, for instance rather arbitrarily (Death by Government, p. 134) 'making the nationalists responsible for half of those who starved to death, or 1,750,000 to 2,500,000 Chinese' in two famines in 1943-44. Readers will have to judge for themselves just how convincing this is.
The Encyclopedia, using Rummel's figures, claims (p.29) that Stalin murdered 42,672,000 people between 1929 and 1953. Rummel's statistics are set out at length in his book Lethal Politics. Here, Rummel claims that Stalin murdered 20,889,000 persons between 1928 and the outbreak of the war in June 1941, including 4,345,000 during the zenith of the Great Terror in 1936-38. These figures (indeed, even higher ones) had previously been given widespread publicity and seeming credibility in the well-known works of Robert Conquest, Roy Medvedev, and others. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, a wealth of previously unavailable sources has become available which very recent historians have employed to revise these figures dramatically downwards. These researchers, such as Alex Nove, J. Arch Getty, Sheila FitzPatrick, and Stephen G. Wheatcroft, are scholars of international repute whose views on Stalinism are identical to those of any other person of goodwill; they have, however, the possibly quaint belief that historians are obliged to tell the truth, regardless of what that truth might be. Nove concluded that 10-11 million persons perished in the Soviet Union during the decade 1930-39, 'with peasants numerically the main victims'. It would appear that 'only' 786,098 persons were shot by Stalin for 'counter-revolutionary and state crimes' between 1931 and 1953, with 682,000 of these killed in 1937-38, the height of the Great Purges. Rather cleverly examining the dropout rates of random samples of individual telephone subscribers listed in the Moscow phone books of 1935-36 and 1937-38 Fitzpatrick concluded that the rate of disappearance was no more than 7 per cent, although the dropout rate among senior party officials was much higher, around 60 per cent/ In other words, Rummel (and many other historians) has vastly exaggerated the scale of Stalin's mass murders, whatever else might be said about Stalinism or the Soviet Union. In the Encyclopedia, Rummel also states (p.438) that 'aside from the Jews, the Germans murdered nearly 2,400,000 Poles, 3,000,000 Ukrainians, 1,600,000 Russians, and 1,400,000 Belorussians' during the war. These figures may be accurate, but one would like much better evidence before accepting them. About 3 million Jews were killed by the Nazis in the extermination camps, virtually synonymous with conveyor-belt efficiency and integrated with Europe's rail lines. Just how, for instance, did the Nazis kill the same number of non-Jewish Ukrainians, especially given that Germany was driven from the Ukraine by mid-1944?

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 25 Jul 2004 20:46

Perhaps the postings about Rummel, estimates etc. should be moved to their own thread? They're not about the repressions against minorities.

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Moderator, please!

Post by johnkeller2004 » 26 Jul 2004 18:46

Krasnoarmieyet wrote:Mabe cause none of its ture and mabe its all western or nazi propaganda, to bad mouth the Soviet Union ? You alwese hear that the Soviet commited crimes against so and so but have you ever since any documents or anything that proves it ?


If the subject was the Jews at Auschwitz, you'd have your a** banned immediately!

From the "Note on Denial":

The rules of this forum regarding holocaust denial also apply, for example, to the mass murders of Armenians during WWI, and the interwar famine in the Ukraine. It is permissible to question whether these and similar events were the result of a deliberate government policy, and legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, individual items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, but it is not permissible to deny that the events occurred.

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Re: Soviet Crimes against Minority during World War II

Post by johnkeller2004 » 26 Jul 2004 18:47

Benoit Douville wrote:Soviets targeted the following groups:

-Polish minority in Soviet Union
-Crimean Tatars
-Cossacks
-Chechens
-Volga Germans
-Kalmyks
-Meskhetians
-Lithuanians
-Latvians
-Estonians
-Orthodox Priests


Seven million Ukrainians exterminated by the Soviet "dictatorship [over] the proletariat."

My grandmother and great-grandparents were survivors.

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Post by johnkeller2004 » 26 Jul 2004 18:50

Sergey Romanov wrote:Benoit's post is well-meaning but slightly misleading. Most of these people were Soviets too, so if we say that "Soviets" (as a group) persecuted someone, then Soviets persecuted Soviets. It is more correct to talk about Stalinist persecution.

BTW, during the war the persecution against the Church weakened since Stalin wanted to use religion for his purposes.


The term "Soviet" should be regarded as referring to the Government, like "Nazi" in Germany.

Hence, the "Soviets" persecuted Russians, Ukrainians, Volksdeutsche, etc.

Let's not forget that Soviet butchery was not exclusive to Stalin.

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Post by johnkeller2004 » 26 Jul 2004 18:51

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:Conquest??????????? You've got to be kidding.


What's wrong with Conquest? His research coincides with eyewitness accounts, including my own family's.

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Post by AAA » 26 Jul 2004 21:36

johnkeller2004,

RE Stalinist v soviet : accurate, but follow this and similar threads carefully, there appear russian/soviet apologists who attempt to minimise the blame (rationalize away number of victims of repression by hook or crook), and chuck what is left onto that ONE criminal ( and then eventually *gasp* reveal he wasn't even ethnic Russian).

RE Famine - read the material S.R. posted Ellman writing on the famine a couple posts up, and S.R. seems to endorse. Get angry. Famine deaths NOT victims of repression??????

RE Denial - Starvation, cold, disease and casual abuse deaths in Gulags should not count towards repression victims death totals ?????? There are MANY threads with holocaust revisionist types trying to explain (for instance) that disease and starvation deaths in KLs shouldn't be counted as holocaust victims, and they do indeed get well stomped (typically the moderator will not ban them, but will weigh in against them), and rightly so .

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 27 Jul 2004 00:07

johnkeller, nothing wrong with qualitative descriptions by Conquest. His numbers are way off base.

AAA, can you show that famine deaths are victims of repression? Note that nobody says that Stalin et al. were not responsible for them. But "victims of repression" is a specific group and does not include all the victims for which the government is responsible.

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Post by johnkeller2004 » 27 Jul 2004 00:35

Sergey Romanov wrote:johnkeller, nothing wrong with qualitative descriptions by Conquest. His numbers are way off base.


Why?

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Sergey Romanov
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Post by Sergey Romanov » 27 Jul 2004 00:48

johnkeller, because they're based on rumors and speculations. That it, at least in the works written before the Soviet archives were open.

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Post by Benoit Douville » 27 Jul 2004 01:02

Johnkeller,

I know all about the 7 million Ukrainians who perished under the megalomaniac Stalin in the early 1930 but my point was Soviet crimes during World War II. Anyway, glad to hear that your grandmother and great-grandparents were survivors of that terrible tragedy.

Regards

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