List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Trial

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Boby
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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#91

Post by Boby » 27 Jun 2012, 16:10

LWD wrote:
I believe your quote listed them.
Those were war crimes for IMT. It doesn't mean there were real crimes. IMT was an ad hoc creation. They can put to death any person if they wanted. You are again talking nonsense.
He could always have resigned.
We don't know if he at any point wanted to resign or asked Hitler to relieve him of his obligations. I read Hitler refused some resignations of Reichsministers. We have to look at archival material, testimonies, etc. In any case, Frick was a nobody in the power struggles in the Third Reich. So, yes, he was Reichsminister until 1943 and then Reichsprotektor. But no real evidence against him.
That's not what the refence you posted suggested.
Perhaps you know better LWD. Please list here Frick murderous decissions.
According to your reference he drafted and implimented them as well.
Laws legally ordered by the german government. Frick put his signature in his capacity of Interior ministry.
Really? That's hardly the impression one gets from the quote you listed.
Obviously you are ignorant of actual Third Reich history. I wonder what books supposedly you read about it. Any person familiarized with events know that Frick was a nobody in the Protektorat. Real power was in SS/NSDAP/economical agencies. Frick was nominally in charge, as Neurath until 1943. Do you think Neurath was more powerful than Heydrich?
Again an opinion sans logic or fact.
My opinion, yes. Since the judgement was incapable of incriminating Frick with hard evidence, I left the readers decide for themselves.

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waldzee
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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#92

Post by waldzee » 27 Jun 2012, 16:20

Kilgore Trout wrote:Utterly INCREDIBLE! As if the entire world - and possibly the populations of several other planets - was somehow unaware that agents of the S.U. wilfully murdered nearly 22,000 officers of the Polish military. At least 4300 bodies, mostly shot through the back of the skull, wer uncovered in at least two locations in the Katyn Forest west of Smolensk, Russia in 1943. A large number of others were force marched to near Archengelsk and loaded onto barges. The barges were towed out into the White Sea, wher the Re Danner Fleet used them for gunnery practice. That is, I admit, VERY general, but I'm certain anyone can easily find more details. C., 1991, the S.U. government actually admitted it did this, after trying to hand the crime on the Nazis for 48 years. The German government was blamed for this at the Nurnberg Show Trials. Sorry if I don't provide chapter and verse.
"The Joy of Killing", Laurence Rees, World War II magazine, July/August 2012 edition, p. 20 describes his interview with Zinaida Pytkina, in which she brags about murdering a German army major who was a prisoner of war.
There. Those are, by the very definition, war crimes. Perpetrated by "the Allies" (wasn't MY idea to ally with the greatest mass-murderer in human history just to overcome the #3 guy).
Rule of law? ... duh, W.T.F. is that, man?
Is THAT good enough for you?. By the way, the word is hypocrisy.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not - quite.
the Unbelievable Squawking Stalin Ratpack , at the Nuremburg trial was allowed to make an absdolute hash up of the denial process to the world.
It came back to haunt them during the Cold war. Still does.
http://www.katyn.org.au/hole.html


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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#93

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jun 2012, 19:10

An off-topic opinion rant from Kilgore Trout was removed by the moderator -- DT.
1. Discussions

The research sections of the forum are meant for persons who are fairly well-informed on the topics being discussed, and our discussions are not directed at the lowest common denominator of readership. Rural customs of discourse, such as feigned ignorance, pettifogging, playing at peek-a-boo, or "stonewalling" denials of facts well-known to most informed persons, are strongly disfavored here.

The object of the research sections of the forum is to exchange information, not to engage in dim wrangling as a form of diversion. Our readers are intelligent people, who have already taken the time to inform themselves on the topic under discussion and don't have a lot of time to waste playing games. Shrill and highly polemical posts are also strongly disfavored.

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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

For pre-existing threads on the Katyn massacre, see below. Please note that responsibility for the massacres had not been fixed at the time of the IMT proceedings, and that the IMT judgment ignored the Katn massacre allegations made by the Soviet Union against the German armed forces:

Katyn Forest

Katyn - 1944 Soviet special commission report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57175
Katyn -- the IMT spat
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57145
Katyn -- the 1943 O'Malley report
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57147
Katyn – 1952 US Congressional findings
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57050
Katyn -- Maps
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57045
The Katyn testimony of Eugen Oberhauser
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56995
The Katyn testimony of Boris Bazilevskiy
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56997
The Katyn testimony of Victor Il’ich Prosorovski
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57002
The Katyn testimony of marko Antonov Markov
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=57000
The Katyn testimony of Reinhard von Eichborn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56993
The Katyn testimony of Friedrich Ahrens
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56992
Katyn, Injustice and the IMT
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44639
Katyn mass murder question
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=45481
The Soviet war crimes against Poland: Katyn 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18124
Document related to the Polish POWs in USSR 1940
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=28090
US report about Katyn delivered to Poland?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=19866
KATYN - an un-punished war crime !
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15072
Soviet Responsibility at Katyn: pro and con
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56940
Perpetrators of the massacre in Katyn forest
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=66696
Katyn Massacre Documents
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=710962
German ammo at Katyn forest
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41962

Germans Hanged for Katyn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=26603
A False Confession Made by a German POW under Torture?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18473
Germans executed for Katyn
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15730

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#94

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jun 2012, 19:23

For a pre-existing, 13-page open thread on the IMT judgment against Julius Streicher, see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27013

Please post any further comments on the IMT Streicher judgment there.

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LWD
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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#95

Post by LWD » 27 Jun 2012, 19:34

Boby wrote:LWD wrote:
I believe your quote listed them.
Those were war crimes for IMT. It doesn't mean there were real crimes.
In what sense would they not be "real crimes"? In my book if a court finds you guilty and you can end up in prison or hanging for the offence that's a pretty "real crime". Furthermore the Holocaust involved quite a few actions that I suspect were against German law at the time as well.
IMT was an ad hoc creation.
Perhaps but irrelevant.
They can put to death any person if they wanted.
Not really. It was conviened for a stated purpose and those not covered were quite safe from it. Even some of those covered were not tried and some of those tried were not convicted so while in theory it may have had such power it didn't exercise it.
You are again talking nonsense.
Am I? I suggest you had better look in the mirror if you want to find someone guilty of that charge.
He could always have resigned.
We don't know if he at any point wanted to resign or asked Hitler to relieve him of his obligations. I read Hitler refused some resignations of Reichsministers.
We do? Why? He apparently was in power during the critical period.
.... In any case, Frick was a nobody in the power struggles in the Third Reich.
Which is relevant how?
So, yes, he was Reichsminister until 1943 and then Reichsprotektor. But no real evidence against him.
That's an opinion that you state that pretty much is contradicted by his enditement you posted alone.
That's not what the refence you posted suggested.
Perhaps you know better LWD. Please list here Frick murderous decissions.
You are the proponent you show us clearly where they were in error.
According to your reference he drafted and implimented them as well.
Laws legally ordered by the german government. Frick put his signature in his capacity of Interior ministry.
Were they really "legally ordered by the German government"? In any case it clearly played a part in the genocidal activities of the Nazi regime.
Really? That's hardly the impression one gets from the quote you listed.
Obviously you are ignorant of actual Third Reich history. I wonder what books supposedly you read about it. Any person familiarized with events know that Frick was a nobody in the Protektorat. Real power was in SS/NSDAP/economical agencies. Frick was nominally in charge, as Neurath until 1943. Do you think Neurath was more powerful than Heydrich?
This is relevant how? In case you missed it by the way the IMT made it pretty clear that "just following orders" is not a valid defence.
Again an opinion sans logic or fact.
My opinion, yes. Since the judgement was incapable of incriminating Frick with hard evidence, I left the readers decide for themselves.
A judgement doesn't incriminate anyone it mearly judges whether they are guilty. It's their own actions that incrminate them and it rather looks like Frick's did at least based on your posting which given that you are trying to make the opposite case is rather telling.

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BillHermann
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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#96

Post by BillHermann » 27 Jun 2012, 19:57

I fail to understand any of the stresses along the "hypocrisy camp" as no country or court has ever been completly impartial. Even countries that hold their own trials for war crimes are rarely impartial without bias.

My question is why should the SS and Nazis have recived any special unique treatment from the allies. Where is the logic from a Judge or Judges sitting back and saying no we will be decent to these guys because our solders did bad things too. Or have the Judges choose to charge all soldiers on all sides no matter the crime and investigation cost.

It is not just because the victor can set the rules but it is also not practical to begin feild investigations of minor suspected events from 1940 to 1945 by the allies. It is also not worth investigating or charging Air Marshals or pilots for acts of bombing covilians that were an act by all. It was far less a anti-NazI conspiracy and more to do with practicality. Even if charges were to be laid in many of the events that many deem criminal from Dachau to Dresden, there would then have to be whole sale charges against the German Luftwaffe for its role in bombings. There would have had to be more energy put fourth towards many exicutions or events perpetrated by the Germans that seemed questionable in that time period.

The only part that troubles me is that they chose to let some criminals go either because they were able to help the allies post war or due simply due to incompetence.

Emotion and anger does play into this from a post war stand point, it is impossible to ask that something like this be void of any bias. France, Belgium, Holland, Poland, and many other countries went through serious hardships due to Nazi Germany. To expect any country that was involved to take a step back and not be emotional and not alow it to taint the legal desisions is foolish.

In simple terms if you slapped a judge in the face or any one else for that matter emotion would be there. If it was larger millions of people are involed, it would be even harder. Perfect example is how personal some of the attacks become here if there is no agreement, it is difficult to step back from a debate here, how do you expect the allies to step back in 1945/46/47.
Last edited by BillHermann on 28 Jun 2012, 04:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#97

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jun 2012, 21:30

A post from Boby, containing insulting remarks about another poster, was removed by this moderator - DT.

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Terry Duncan
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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#98

Post by Terry Duncan » 27 Jun 2012, 21:56

Boby,

I think some of the problems you and LWD are having possibly stem from conversing in a language that is not your first language and misunderstandings that stem from that.
Frick judgement was a joke from the beginning to the end. No real evidence, just that he was Reichsminister and passed laws.
The judgement against Frick is far from a joke and does include some very serious points. Frick signed into law many of the most contentious acts of Nazi policy, as as a lawyer himself he must have understood the legal ramifications of what he was doing. Just a few lines from the judgement against him on Count 2;

Frick signed the law of 13th March, 1938, which united Austria with the Reich, and he was made responsible for its accomplishment. In setting up German administration in Austria, he issued decrees which introduced German law, the Nuremberg Decrees, the Military Service Law, and he provided for police security by Himmler.
He also signed the laws incorporating into the Reich the Sudetenland, Memel, Danzig, the Eastern territories (West Prussia and Posen) and Eupen, Malmedy, and Moresnot. He was placed in charge of the actual incorporation, and of the establishment of German administration over these territories. He signed the law establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.


Frick was signing into law Hitler's expansionist policies, most notably in violation of the Treaty of Versailles, and even if you think Hitler had some sort of right to overturn treaties he did not approve of, the law did not agree with that idea.

With regards to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, Counts 2 & 3;

His work formed the basis of the Nuremberg Decrees, and he was active in enforcing them. Responsible for prohibiting Jews from following various professions, and for confiscating their property, he signed a final decree in 1943, after the mass destruction of Jews in the East, which placed them " outside the law " and handed them over to the Gestapo. These laws paved the way for the " final solution ", and were extended by Frick to the Incorporated Territories and to certain of the Occupied Territories. While he was Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, thousands of Jews were transferred from the Terezin Ghetto in Czechoslovakia to Auschwitz, where they were killed. He issued a decree providing for special penal laws against Jews and Poles in the Government General.


And;

As the Supreme Reich Authority in Bohemia and Moravia, Frick bears general responsibility for the acts of oppression in that territory after 20th August, 1943, such as terrorism of the population, slave labour, and the deportation of Jews to the concentration camps for extermination. It is true that Frick's duties as Reich Protector were considerably more limited than those of his predecessor, and that he had no legislative and limited personal executive authority in the Protectorate. Nevertheless, Frick knew full well what the Nazi policies of occupation were in Europe, particularly with respect to Jews, at that time, and by accepting the office of Reich Protector he assumed responsibility for carrying out those policies in Bohemia and Moravia.


These three sections give an idea that the charges against Frick were not a joke, and that by his actions he had committed crimes under the indictment. Just because Frick did not personally kill anyone does not absolve him of the guilt for signing into law many of the acts used to kill thousands, or that removed all their rights.

For those interested the full judgement against Frick can be seen here;

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... Frick.html

The problem was that Frick's work removed all rights from people within Nazi territories, a violation of their human rights in itself, and enshrined into law everything needed to enable the Holocaust. As a lawyer Frick knew he took responsibility for his actions as the judgement makes clear.

Edit: This post was written prior to the removal of Boby's post by David, and I leave it to David if he wishes to delete this as it attempts to address points arising in the deleted post.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#99

Post by David Thompson » 27 Jun 2012, 22:43

john h – You wrote (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1711124): (1)
Dear Mr Thompson because i do not toe the party line and because i will not be spoon fed the Allied one sided propoganda does not mean you have to tear my posts to bits and then come out with sarcastic remarks
(a) No one here cares what you toe or how you eat. In fact, no one here cares about you one way or another. Our readers come here to get trustworthy information about historical subjects which interest them.

(b) A person who takes the property of another and calls it his own is a thief. A thief is not generally considered trustworthy. Neither is a liar.

(c) The first time I caught you stealing I gave you a polite warning (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1704379) and told you that our rules forbid it and not to do it again. You apologized and claimed your error was an accidental mistake (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1704387). Then you did it again.

Having received a polite warning and then done it again, you had nothing more coming to you. If you don't like my second warning, that's tough.

(2)
You were quite right i was quoting Mark Weber but he was quoting the same sources that i quoted if you look at the end of each paragraph i have given a source the same as Weber has done i dont see this has being any different than the posts you have put into threads quoting I M T JUDGEMENTS you give sources just the same as i did
(a) There is an important difference you seem to have missed. I don't claim the IMT judgments as my own writing, and I put them in quotes with proper credit, so other readers can confirm them for themselves. You, on the other hand, by not giving the real authors credit for their writing and research, claimed Mark Weber's and C. Peter Chen's works as your own.

(b) AHF exists for our readers and members. Thousands of them come here every day for the exhaustive information they can get for free. The forum host, Marcus Wendel, pays for the site out of his own pocket, with some offsets from advertisers and members who are financial supporters. The volunteer moderator staff works hard to keep the forum standards up to expectations.

It may surprise you to know that for the last 300 years there has been a concept called "copyright" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright_law), and that most countries have civil and criminal laws to enforce it. None of our readers are interested in having the forum shut down because of one or more lawsuits, occasioned by thieving posts or some other form of copyright infringement. Nor is anyone on the forum staff interested in spending time away from their jobs, their families, and their ordinary affairs to answer legal demands about stolen property posted by you or others on this site. That's another one of the reasons AHF requires attribution for quotes. That's also why our rules say:
We will not tolerate the use of either the posting mechanism or the private messenger system to violate existing Copyright Laws. Members who repeatedly post copyrighted material without proper attribution or otherwise use the Forum to knowingly circumvent Copyright Laws, will be banned.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6

(3) At http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1711268, you wrote:
The Nuremburg Trials and the Holocaust this document runs to 29 pages on page 5 under the heading A Double Standard this contains 10 paragraphs none of these are Webers work each paragraph is taken from a book or an offical document and sourced accordingly all i did was use the same sources that Weber did so if i am guilty well Mark Weber and i hold our hands up
This explanation is hardly convincing. All of those synopses are Mr. Weber's work, as even a superficial reading of the article shows. Any of our readers can see it for themselves by clicking on the link. Mr. Weber routinely uses quotation marks or an extra indent when quoting others, and credits the quote, just like you're required to do here.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#100

Post by Boby » 28 Jun 2012, 10:03

Terry Duncan

The problem with Frick judgement is that it was absoutely biased. It was a desperate attempt to link Frick with atrocities committed by other german agencies he has nothing to do. Frick simply translate Hitler's actions with a legal machanistic procedure. He never committed any crime, he never was involved in any crime. Some laws he passed were just rationalizations of events were outside his control/responsability.

As for his time as Reichsprotektor, the same. He was officialy in charge, but the real power was not in his hands. SS/Party/Economic agencies, etc were the real occupation power, not Frick.
As the Supreme Reich Authority in Bohemia and Moravia, Frick bears general responsibility for the acts of oppression in that territory after 20th August, 1943, such as terrorism of the population, slave labour, and the deportation of Jews to the concentration camps for extermination.
This shows an absolute ignorance of how nazi occupational policies functioned. There is no real evidence, only that he was Reichsprotektor hence he was responsible for all was hapenning. Absolute nonsense.

The judgement is an absolute failure. If you have hard evidence against him, please post it here. IMT was incapable of prividing real evidence.

I critizied Frick's death sentence. I don't say he would be exonerated, but a 5 years prison sentence would be ok. He clearly have a responsability, but a very limited one.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#101

Post by Boby » 28 Jun 2012, 11:35

Where is the evidence Frick was "rabidly anti-Semitic"? Did he confess it to his captors?

Frick, as a civil servant, was a "rational" anti-semite. Rational anti-semites wanted jews out of economic life of Germany and eventually of Germany itself in a proper manner. Rational anti-semites were opossed to vulgar (dumpfen Radau-Antisemitismus) and primitive anti-semitism à la Streicher.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#102

Post by LWD » 28 Jun 2012, 17:00

Boby wrote:... The problem with Frick judgement is that it was absoutely biased.
Was it? At this point all we have is your opinion on the matter.
It was a desperate attempt to link Frick with atrocities committed by other german agencies he has nothing to do.
How so? What agencies and what demonstrates that he had nothing to do with them?
Frick simply translate Hitler's actions with a legal machanistic procedure. He never committed any crime, he never was involved in any crime. Some laws he passed were just rationalizations of events were outside his control/responsability.
If he was involved in implementing or writeing the laws that lead to, aided, or justified genocide then that was indeed a criminal act. Again the IMT made it clear that "just following orders" was not a valid defence.
.... Absolute nonsense. ...The judgement is an absolute failure.
Terms like this with nothing to support them but claims that your opponents don't know what they are talking about are opinions only and of little worth.
I critizied Frick's death sentence. I don't say he would be exonerated, but a 5 years prison sentence would be ok. He clearly have a responsability, but a very limited one.
So now you are saying that he did indeed commit crimes where you were adament before that he didn't. What constitutes a just sentence is rather up to the laws and the courts is it not? As an example of US law if two individuals attempt to rob say a liquer store and one is killed in the attempt the other can be convicted of 1st degree murder in many states. In some states this may result in the death penalty. This is true if even if he was only driving the "getaway car".
Last edited by LWD on 28 Jun 2012, 19:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#103

Post by Boby » 28 Jun 2012, 17:41

Another unsourced post from LWD, again trying to waste my time with his typical nonsense. If you again comes here with unsourced claims, you are automatically on ignore.
Was it? At this point all we have is your opinion on the matter.
My opinion is based on evidence. Your opinion is based on prejudices and ignorance.
How so? What agencies and what demonstrates that he had nothing to do with them?
The judgement was incapable of providing real evidence for justify his death sentence.
If he was involved in implementing or writeing the laws that lead to, aided, or justified genocide then that was indeed a criminal act. Again the IMT made it clear that "just following orders" was not a valid defence.
Perhaps you can post here what orders signed by Frick lead to/justified genocide. Frick was a nobody in the process leading to the "Holocaust".
Terms like this with nothing to support them but claims that your opponents don't know what they are talking about are opinions only and of little worth.
Obviously I have in mind persons who have deep knowledge of sources and literature. Clearly you are not one of them.
So now you are saying that he did indeed commit crimes where you were adament before that he didn't. What constitutes a just sentence is rather up to the laws and the courts is it not? As an example of US law if two individuals attempt to rob say a liquer store and one is killed in the attempt the other can be convicted of 1st degree murder in many states. In some states this may result in the death penalty. This is true if even if he was only driving the "getaway car".
Frick have responsability for his own sphere that was not penetrated by other agencies. In areas other agencies were responsible, Frick was not. A nobody.

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#104

Post by Boby » 28 Jun 2012, 18:14

LWD has to demostrate that Frick was personally responsible of:

II = "Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace"
III = "War crimes"
IV = "Crimes against humanity"

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Re: List of double standards and injustice of Nuremberg Tria

#105

Post by David Thompson » 28 Jun 2012, 18:18

Boby -- Please avoid personal remarks in posts. If you don't like what someone else has to say, you are free to ignore them and make the best case you can for your point of view. If you choose to answer them, keep the answer civil and address the factual points only.

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