I agree, unless of course this is made to portray all the sides as equally morally wrong in the conflict.Every victim of WWII deserves recognition, German or Polish or Russian or whatever.
Poland wants Schröder to speak out against reparation claims
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Obserwator
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Oberserwer
Now you are competely OT with exagerated and unsubstantiated
predictions about the museums plans.No wonder you guys national conscence is cracking.Talking about nationalistic excursions,just listen to your ranting,AH would have been proud, having some one like you spreading his propaganda
with your poise.
Last month I spend some time in Gdansk/Danzig,Poland and to your probable amazement we were more than once approached by Polish queens with nature calls(Euros or $$$) and welcomed you without much coersion.If this is rape in your eyes than the AH era is still around.
Now you are competely OT with exagerated and unsubstantiated
predictions about the museums plans.No wonder you guys national conscence is cracking.Talking about nationalistic excursions,just listen to your ranting,AH would have been proud, having some one like you spreading his propaganda
with your poise.
Another OT answer:And Polish girls acted no different from other species,when nature calls THEY responded without
much coercion
Polish girls are some kind of species, nature calls ? I thought such talk was gone with Hitler era.
Sadly I was mistaken.
Last month I spend some time in Gdansk/Danzig,Poland and to your probable amazement we were more than once approached by Polish queens with nature calls(Euros or $$$) and welcomed you without much coersion.If this is rape in your eyes than the AH era is still around.
Last edited by Landser on 02 Aug 2004, 10:24, edited 1 time in total.
Obserwator wrote:I agree, unless of course this is made to portray all the sides as equally morally wrong in the conflict.Every victim of WWII deserves recognition, German or Polish or Russian or whatever.
But personal and national immorality is not reserved to any one crime, any one place, any one ideology, any one people, any one group, or any one person. The immorality of Hitler is is thus equaled by the immorality of Stalin; the immorality of the Nazi concentration camps in the 1930s and 1940s by the South Africa that murdered Stephen Biko and untold others in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, and indeed by the increasingly emerging horrors of the past twenty-five years in various South American countries. The immorality of the Lidice massacre was duplicated by the US in Viet Nam; the murder of the Jews, however unique the technique, was numerically even exceeded by the Nazi slaughters of non-Jewish Russians and Poles, and all of it was more than paralleled the even not known number of Russians whom Stalin, Yagoda and Yeshov murdered no less determinedly than the Nazis murdered the Jews. Finally, with the same cynicism the West demonstrated toward those earlier crimes, nothing was done about the genocide of the Biafrans by Nigerians, of the Kurds by Saddam Hussein, and of all educated Cambodians by the Khmer Rouge, whose political ambitions the West today, to our collective shame, continues to support.
I point out these comparisons not to escape from the subject at hand, or to minimize Nazi crimes. I do so in order to remind us all that writing, thinking and judging, if it is to be of any value, must always be- and remain-comparative, open and in context with time, historical events, and social developments. When considering individuals, it must be within the context of the fallibilities and frailties of their lives.
Sereny, Albert Speer, p. 169
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Karwats
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Are you going to retract this or must I assume this is personal????Two taunting and off-topic posts by Karwats, and a response to the first of them by Musashi, were deleted by the moderator -- DT.
Karwats -- If you don't have anything constructive to add to our discussions here, don't bother to post.
BTW the friendly banter between myself and Mushashi was quite humorous if you bothered to read it-lighten up.
I sincerily feel that it´s tragic that your families estate has been a hard case. It´s just that this whole issue is so damn sensitive for both the Polish and German people that I believe that some things are better left alone to be remebered but not brought up in such a painful way. I would also like to have a real connection, perhaps ownership of my families place of origin - but who should pay for it ? The German state ?
Hi Mostowka, ja I don't know if this was actually State driven or just some paper shuffler trying to give me a hard time.
In any case getting a Govt. to pay for my stuff was never an option-it still is not. Therefore you adapt and you make a plan.
Like I said before it seems that post EU there is a more business like attitude and if anything else money talks. I would not shoot down entirely your ambitions for a restitution-you can always make an enquiry wont hurt and you never know
As for the rest of this mine is bigger than yours and you did it to us before we did it to you stuff. Just think about this for awhile:
I have had civil discussions with a member on another thread who was part of an army that were trying their damndest to kill myself and my father a little over 10 years ago. We disagree of course but it remains civil. Just think on that before slinging stuff around from 60 years ago. We all have thoughts on the matter,we are all proud of our families and rightly so. Just because you happen to disagree with someoene does not make them evil or something sinister,nor does it immediately give you the moral high ground-none of us have earned the right to judge others.
Brgds
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David Thompson
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Karwats -- You asked:
(2) Just because I didn't like one of your posts doesn't have anything to do with you personally. I don't know who you are and I haven't formed an opinion about you one way or the other.
(1) I am not going to retract anything.Are you going to retract this or must I assume this is personal????
(2) Just because I didn't like one of your posts doesn't have anything to do with you personally. I don't know who you are and I haven't formed an opinion about you one way or the other.
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Karwats
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1. The post were demostrated not to be taunts. Both by my explanation of the meaning and by a post from the member I allegedly taunted.Two taunting and off-topic posts by Karwats, and a response to the first of them by Musashi, were deleted by the moderator -- DT.
Karwats -- If you don't have anything constructive to add to our discussions here, don't bother to post.
2. Then the remark about not constructive posting.
I suggest you re-evaluate your position about the retraction.
Whether you liked the post or not is irrelevant. Point is it was neither a taunt or non-constructive. Therefore you have no basis for removal thereoff.(2) Just because I didn't like one of your posts doesn't have anything to do with you personally. I don't know who you are and I haven't formed an opinion about you one way or the other.
I reiterate maybe you should re-evaluate your position.
I was hoping that it would be that way: ‘past is the past, future is the future’. But Germans started making stupid claims – they even established Preussische Treuhand GmbH & Co. – a company which was established to assist Germans who would going to sue Polish government for reparation.
As a result mayor of Warsaw ordered to prepare documentation of destroyed or razed property, real estates and so on from 1939 to 1945. Poznan (Posen) is doing same thing, other Polish cities are next in a row.
So allow me make it plain and simple while if Germans want a war for law-suits, we will give them one.
As a lawyer I can say Germany never paid a dime to Poland, and Poland never waived any claims. All Polish authorities did: they waived claims to DDR but not to Germany. And Polish government could have not waived any claims in the name of its citizens.
In mid 90’s most people considered reparation issue as closed and buried. Obviously not Ms Steibach. She woke a demon. Well, now Pandora’s box is open and no one can stop mutual claims. It’s time tof lawyers to do their job.
Regards!
BTW. If Germans fled from Red Army, or Red Army ransacked they property they should sue Russia. Of course if they want to win a case not merely making a fuss. As for deportation in 1945 and 1946 – It wasn’t a Polish government’s decision but Allies made in Potsdam.
Mr. Joachim Chan
In Bydgoszcz, in Sept 1939 German population started a rebellion against Polish authorities. They were shooting at soldiers so soldiers returned fire. Starting a rebellion is a tricky job and you should consider the possibility that you receive a bullet. Especially when you shoot from a roof to armed soldiers. Obviously somebody forgot to warn German Fifth Columnist that they risked they lives, when started a rebellion. So what is a ground for any reparation here ?
As a result mayor of Warsaw ordered to prepare documentation of destroyed or razed property, real estates and so on from 1939 to 1945. Poznan (Posen) is doing same thing, other Polish cities are next in a row.
So allow me make it plain and simple while if Germans want a war for law-suits, we will give them one.
As a lawyer I can say Germany never paid a dime to Poland, and Poland never waived any claims. All Polish authorities did: they waived claims to DDR but not to Germany. And Polish government could have not waived any claims in the name of its citizens.
In mid 90’s most people considered reparation issue as closed and buried. Obviously not Ms Steibach. She woke a demon. Well, now Pandora’s box is open and no one can stop mutual claims. It’s time tof lawyers to do their job.
Regards!
BTW. If Germans fled from Red Army, or Red Army ransacked they property they should sue Russia. Of course if they want to win a case not merely making a fuss. As for deportation in 1945 and 1946 – It wasn’t a Polish government’s decision but Allies made in Potsdam.
Mr. Joachim Chan
In Bydgoszcz, in Sept 1939 German population started a rebellion against Polish authorities. They were shooting at soldiers so soldiers returned fire. Starting a rebellion is a tricky job and you should consider the possibility that you receive a bullet. Especially when you shoot from a roof to armed soldiers. Obviously somebody forgot to warn German Fifth Columnist that they risked they lives, when started a rebellion. So what is a ground for any reparation here ?
Polish state official and local clerks in all institutions have never been easy on anyone making any kinds of requests or claims, it´s easing up nowdays but the political unwillingness has simply been exchanged for a economic desire.Hi Mostowka, ja I don't know if this was actually State driven or just some paper shuffler trying to give me a hard time.
I have no desire making some Ukranian poorer than they are, and for what good ? What should I do with a series of ancestral houses in the Kresy ? Regardless of the pain of loss.I would not shoot down entirely your ambitions for a restitution-you can always make an enquiry wont hurt and you never know
I have no bad or sinister feelings towards you or your opinions, neither do I disagree with your desire to have a try at buying you old family estate. I have as well not judged you in any way. I would also like to tell you that I have no bad feelings against the German people or state in any way at all, and as well I dont feel that the Germans of today should be shameful or bear any more burden from the war.Just because you happen to disagree with someoene does not make them evil or something sinister,nor does it immediately give you the moral high ground-none of us have earned the right to judge others.
When I brought up the case of my family it was simply taking out a sample Polish family who lost everything and never ever recieved any resitution from the Germans - together with the advice to better leave some things alone.
What I on the other hand could not think of in any other way is that the Polish people have the moral highground on this one. That´s simply nothing to discuss.
Hi,
I think that two things are constantly confused with each other in the discussion here: 1) the rights of the individual and 2) the rights of the states. With number 2 it may be valid to claim that present borders are a permanent result of the WWII and that they reflect certain justice. But to extend the same to individual level is not that simple. If someone was forced out from his estate for example from East Prussia, Polish state (given of course that it was Poland and not Russia who took over the lands) clearly violated the rights of the individual in question. The state should have protected the individual not persecute him (or let him be persecuted) in the first place. This may well entitle the individual to claim some sort of compensation and/or the return of the property.
WWII was exceptional in Europe because so many people were forcibly moved from the lands where their families might have lived for centuries. Almost always before ruler changed but the subjects remained put, despite of the horrors of the wars. Prussian-French War and the aftermath of WWI had already paved the way (for example Elsass-Lothringen) but people had not been expelled before in this scale because of their language or nationality.
German government can naturally choose to support the individual claims, sit by and do nothing or try to influence the individuals that they would not claim their rights. Polish government obviously wishes the German government to choose the second or the third option. However, this would in my understanding not prevent anyone from trying via the Polish legal system.
Property right questions are propbaly from the easier end of the spectrum and they are also cases where those who have lost their estate have the best chances of succeeding. When it comes to immaterial compensation for example for suffering caused by forced labour or period in the camp system, things become more complicated, and as has already been seen, the compensation may be a lump sum that is not very much when divided by the number of potential recipients.
For the Poles the problem in the future will be, that as a member in the EU Polish government is obliged to follow certain legal principles that may well enable German citizens to succesfully make claims against the Polish state. At the same time, Poles may not be able to make similar claims to reclaim their lost estates because they fall outside of EU jurisdiction. So it seems that we all find from our path the things we thought we already left behind;-)
Personally I don't think that there is going to be a massive movement back to roots in any case but if these claims can be treated in a civilized manner and taking responsibility of the past, EU has fullfilled one of its objectives.
Regards,
Jari
I think that two things are constantly confused with each other in the discussion here: 1) the rights of the individual and 2) the rights of the states. With number 2 it may be valid to claim that present borders are a permanent result of the WWII and that they reflect certain justice. But to extend the same to individual level is not that simple. If someone was forced out from his estate for example from East Prussia, Polish state (given of course that it was Poland and not Russia who took over the lands) clearly violated the rights of the individual in question. The state should have protected the individual not persecute him (or let him be persecuted) in the first place. This may well entitle the individual to claim some sort of compensation and/or the return of the property.
WWII was exceptional in Europe because so many people were forcibly moved from the lands where their families might have lived for centuries. Almost always before ruler changed but the subjects remained put, despite of the horrors of the wars. Prussian-French War and the aftermath of WWI had already paved the way (for example Elsass-Lothringen) but people had not been expelled before in this scale because of their language or nationality.
German government can naturally choose to support the individual claims, sit by and do nothing or try to influence the individuals that they would not claim their rights. Polish government obviously wishes the German government to choose the second or the third option. However, this would in my understanding not prevent anyone from trying via the Polish legal system.
Property right questions are propbaly from the easier end of the spectrum and they are also cases where those who have lost their estate have the best chances of succeeding. When it comes to immaterial compensation for example for suffering caused by forced labour or period in the camp system, things become more complicated, and as has already been seen, the compensation may be a lump sum that is not very much when divided by the number of potential recipients.
For the Poles the problem in the future will be, that as a member in the EU Polish government is obliged to follow certain legal principles that may well enable German citizens to succesfully make claims against the Polish state. At the same time, Poles may not be able to make similar claims to reclaim their lost estates because they fall outside of EU jurisdiction. So it seems that we all find from our path the things we thought we already left behind;-)
Personally I don't think that there is going to be a massive movement back to roots in any case but if these claims can be treated in a civilized manner and taking responsibility of the past, EU has fullfilled one of its objectives.
Regards,
Jari
It seems our friends from Germany don't get the point.
1) Germany never paid any reparations to Poland. The only reparation was given in VERY limited scale to slave-workers AND ONLY TO THOSE who were alive (after some 50 years after end of the war).
THerefore you can't use arguments "if German can pay reparation, so can Poles". Germany never paid to destroyed houses, industry, murdered civilians (i am not counting people who died during military operations but those as professors of POlish universities, which were shot just because Poles were not supposed to be scientists.)
2) Many of those expelees (Erica Steinbach is prime example) were expelled freom homes which they in turn took from Polish families. You tend to forget that before 1945 Germans expelled literally millions of Poles from Poznan area, Pomorze, Zamojszczyzna, from territories adapted for military training areas etc.
3) Most of homes and industry received by Poland was in very bda shape (thanks to USSR).
4) Polish expellees from former Polish territories east from Bug will receive reparations from Polish government, not from Belarus, Ukraine etc. It could be argued, that German expelles in similar way should receive reparations from German government
I udnerstand the feelings of expelled Germans, i understand that they were victims and suffered terribly, but i have less understandment for their astonishing lack of historical education.
1) Germany never paid any reparations to Poland. The only reparation was given in VERY limited scale to slave-workers AND ONLY TO THOSE who were alive (after some 50 years after end of the war).
THerefore you can't use arguments "if German can pay reparation, so can Poles". Germany never paid to destroyed houses, industry, murdered civilians (i am not counting people who died during military operations but those as professors of POlish universities, which were shot just because Poles were not supposed to be scientists.)
2) Many of those expelees (Erica Steinbach is prime example) were expelled freom homes which they in turn took from Polish families. You tend to forget that before 1945 Germans expelled literally millions of Poles from Poznan area, Pomorze, Zamojszczyzna, from territories adapted for military training areas etc.
3) Most of homes and industry received by Poland was in very bda shape (thanks to USSR).
4) Polish expellees from former Polish territories east from Bug will receive reparations from Polish government, not from Belarus, Ukraine etc. It could be argued, that German expelles in similar way should receive reparations from German government
I udnerstand the feelings of expelled Germans, i understand that they were victims and suffered terribly, but i have less understandment for their astonishing lack of historical education.
JariL gave the best inside explanation and I'm with you because it is a personnal rights matter which is crying to be dissolved.And the EU has established rules and laws on civil and human rights .
This is the whole fuss about it to prevent the people to call on the court and stop any other activities to remind the world of a certain episode.
Besides the present German generation in general have no desire ever to live in Poland esp.with the conditions there.
This is the whole fuss about it to prevent the people to call on the court and stop any other activities to remind the world of a certain episode.
Besides the present German generation in general have no desire ever to live in Poland esp.with the conditions there.
Last edited by Landser on 02 Aug 2004, 14:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Obserwator
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Yeah, how dares the Polish species resist the nature's call and oppose their German masters. It's unnatural ! And it's not like we were targeted for extermination and slavery by German state :roll: Truly my conscience is cracking :roll:No wonder you guys national conscence is cracking
Considering that Poland never received any compensation for the horrible atrocities commited against it during IIWW some other nations conscience should be cracking.The fact that it hardly does shows that there is a lot of work of educating left to do.
Well a lot of Germans do shop here and firms are moving out of Germany here-as far as I know both taxes and polices of their state make their economy quite inefficient compered to oursBesides the present German generation in general have no desire ever to live in Poland esp.with the conditions there.
Nice piece of revisionism there.Author does hovewer miss the point. None of the other cases match the brutally and aims of the Reich-the extinction of several other nations-treated like animals and bringing about the master race of Germans. Also many the example of USA he shows was accidents not encouraged by govt. unlike the planned and organised campaign of terror waged by the Reich. Nothing can be compered to the immorality of the Reich and its followers.xcalibur-snip-
And anyway-i don't think that anything will change. The fuss was good because it opened eyes to many in Poland that Germany still hosts people who hate our country and we should watch out for them.
And if anyone thinks that Polish society would sit idle while former opressors return then he has a very limited imagination. Such an turn of events would invoke a great backlash against Germany and polarize our position in EU towards countering every decision made by that country.
Last edited by Obserwator on 02 Aug 2004, 14:30, edited 4 times in total.
The only reparation was given in VERY limited scale to slave-workers AND ONLY TO THOSE who were alive (after some 50 years after end of the war).
Not to all of them...
Both my grandmothers were forced to labor for Germans farmers during the war. None of them received a dime from Germans when so called limited reparations were paid. Why? Why did Germans tell them to stuff up? Because only persons who had been deported to slave work were eligible for reparations. Were their work easier just because they worked in GG (General Government - a part of Poland which were not direct incorporated to the Reich). They comment it bitterly ‘Germans screw us again’ They paid some peanuts for few and now claim ‘we paid so you have to paid, either’. NFW!
